Naval reserves face $3M cut

Yeah, why bother with naval reserves when our navy is at 110% of mandated manpower levels...oh wait.

Apples to oranges but it'd be nice if we could just hire reserves and seemlessly integrate them into the surface fleet but the truth of the matter is that they don't have the same training, or for most of them comittment, that would be required to partially man a regular force vessel and that's the downfall of the system.

So until the powers that be get off their asses and make Reserve Service a national service in which employers can't fire, demote, or harrass, their reserve employees, your're not going to be able to get enough personnel to integrate them into anything more than running the few remaining minesweepers.

Not a good move.

Will there ever be a Canadian government that takes national defence seriously outside of wartime?

all the spin aside i have a relative who was a LtCDR with he Naval Reserve's for some 20+ years until he retired and he explained the Reservists situation to me.

The reality is that the reserves has basically outlived their effectiveness. Back when "Gate" vessels (affectionately termed "Pigboats" for those who were there) consisted the training vessels of the Reserves it was fine. Fairly simple technology, no role to speak of except Bridge Watchkeeping Training some training for the lower deck and to act as literally as 'reserves' for the Regular Force to be used on DDE's and DDH's in times of crisis.

So what would happen is the reserve units would recruit up to about 100 people per summer for a brief summer training program for the naval reserve. About half of those would stay past the summer and go further on for weekly training in the fall, and every summer people would go out to Halifax and Esquimalt for further training, some at sea , some not. But it was a regular system, and it worked pretty well

What happened however the Reserves were given the role of "Coastal Defence" very much at their own (that is NavResHQ's)insistence. So instead of providing a general training program that would create a manning pool for the the Reg force, the Naval Reserve was given a permanent commitment for coastal defence. And what happened was that the pool of people able and willing to commit for that amount of time dropped through the floor, and the ones who did usually went reg force anyways



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It's tough to man a Reg Force job with Reservists and is bound to fail.

If Canada is serious about coastal defence, and plenty of people are now very interested in our northern waters, we need a full time response.

24/7 ice capable ships should be the #1 priority now we are leaving the combat mission in Afghanistan.

The Army should have a real and robust capability in Arctic warfare. The Brits are hundreds of miles from the circle but the Royal Marines have been training in Norway since 1945 to hone these skills. Shouldn't the RCR et al at least be able to enact a reforce role for the Rangers?

Your relative hit the nail on the head. I had the misfortune of being posted to the Pig Boats for two years in the early 80's and the things I saw would make your hair stand on end.

A grounding, a collision with a jetty in Seattle and a collision with one of our sister ships in Whidby Island were just a few of the hilarious antics brought to you by the good people of the Naval Reserve.

Although when I think about it, it was to bad because there were alot of good people in the Reserves but the system of the time was set up for a completely different purpose.

Basically, alot of the Senior Officers and Senior NCO's that arrived onboard thought it should be just like weekends at their home unit. A few minutes of military training and then off to the mess to party.

Seamanship and engineering were an after thought with the Bridge training Junior Officers got, was to be kind, questionable, which is understandable when you consider the attitude of some was that you were there to party and get your ticket punched for promotion.

So I can understand NavResHQ wanting to clean out the old guard and run a much tighter ship but in attempting to go it alone with just Coastal Defense they eliminated the vital link with the Reg Force Navy that made them relevant.

Your relative hit the nail on the head. I had the misfortune of being posted to the Pig Boats for two years in the early 80's and the things I saw would make your hair stand on end.

A grounding, a collision with a jetty in Seattle and a collision with one of our sister ships in Whidby Island were just a few of the hilarious antics brought to you by the good people of the Naval Reserve.

Although when I think about it, it was to bad because there were alot of good people in the Reserves but the system of the time was set up for a completely different purpose.

Basically, alot of the Senior Officers and Senior NCO's that arrived onboard thought it should be just like weekends at their home unit. A few minutes of military training and then off to the mess to party.

Seamanship and engineering were an after thought with the Bridge training Junior Officers got, was to be kind, questionable, which is understandable when you consider the attitude of some was that you were there to party and get your ticket punched for promotion.

So I can understand NavResHQ wanting to clean out the old guard and run a much tighter ship but in attempting to go it alone with just Coastal Defense they eliminated the vital link with the Reg Force Navy that made them relevant.

I personally wasn't on the boats i was reg force at the time but i would hook up with him either in Esquimalt or Halifax (Nothing beats a Donair from Venus Pizza if you were ever out there). The people who were posted to reg force ships did good jobs, within their limited training. And i do hear you about some of incompetents who somehow managed to remain in the service for far longer than you might expect.

The whole point was to give them a basic outline of training that would allow them to function aboard a destroyer. Which actually did work.

The issue they have now is that the reserves are trying to perform a reg force role with reservists, which is fine in theory but if the reservists are really reg force in everything but name you just end up undermining your own program

Even with Reserves serving on the Destroyers there was never enough time to train them to a standard of where they were competent and safe. So they became cannon fodder used to fill in menial jobs.

Unfortunately in alot of cases they were treated like second class citizens, so with a scenario like that, it was no wonder that we rarely saw any Reserves willing to train aboard Destroyers and the ones that did sign up either green sheeted quickly or finageled their way off the Ships.

But you are right that the Reserves can't properly perform a Reg Force function and until the Government gets the people at NavResHQ to stop deluding themselves into believing that they're on a par with MarCom, we're going to continue to see problems with the manning of the sweepers and cutbacks to their programs.

BTW I wasn't a reserve when I was on the Boats I was the Reg Force Coxn.

Even with Reserves serving on the Destroyers there was never enough time to train them to a standard of where they were competent and safe. So they became cannon fodder used to fill in menial jobs.

Unfortunately in alot of cases they were treated like second class citizens, so with a scenario like that, it was no wonder that we rarely saw any Reserves willing to train aboard Destroyers and the ones that did sign up either green sheeted quickly or finageled their way off the Ships.

But you are right that the Reserves can't properly perform a Reg Force function and until the Government gets the people at NavResHQ to stop deluding themselves into believing that they're on a par with MarCom, we're going to continue to see problems with the manning of the sweepers and cutbacks to their programs.

BTW I wasn't a reserve when I was on the Boats I was the Reg Force Coxn.

To en extent you're right, however i worked with mostly operation types, NRadOps, NCIOPS and NavSigs and they did fine. As for officers the Rules of the Road are the same for anyone. A cook is a cook and etc etc. And some of them bailed almost right away but the ones who did stay from my perspective at least learned something useful

But NavRes has this thin in their heads where they're going to do this MCD role. I don't think it's working and i dont think it'll get any better with time

It's weird but the last time I can remember seeing a Naval Reserve on a Reg Force ship was the early 80's and he was an ex Reg Force C2 Air Bos'n who'd gone reserve Bos'n and it was the Tanker. Other than that, I think it was in 1970 on a triangle cruise that was the last time I saw a reserve on a destroyer.

There's alot more to navigating a warship than rules of the road, if that was the case, i'd have a bridge ticket myself. The problem with the Gate Vessel Navigation training was that it was half assed an most of it was done in enclosed waters, during the day, without the stresses or technology that an OOW would find on a destroyer and to top it off blind pilotage training was negligable at best, but terrifying for the cable party.

So in my humble opinion, unless the war was going to be fought by gate vessels the OOW tickets that came off them wouldn't have been much value to a destroyer unless they were basically retrained.

As for the training done on the minesweepers, I have no idea how good it is but at least the vessels and technology are light years newer than the gate vessels were, so maybe the training would be relevant to the frigates.

As for the Op's trades I'll have to take your word for whether they'd integrate well or not, but cooks aren't just cooks. I saw a ton or army and air force cooks loose it when they had to prepare and serve meals in heavy seas

I guess that will be the Canadian government that doesn't mind taxing us up the hoop. I don't want to meet that government.

I've met it. It's called the Ontario government. And boy do they waste our taxes.

The reserves have been changed to a) the traditional part time force and b) a full time quasi reg force. Add to that, the numbers of reserves that are hired to fill in empty reg force positions - numbered in the hundreds or up to thousands across Canada, and I'll submit that they are doing a very effective job. The KINGSTONs do a lot of the work that is not cost effective for a frigate, and since there are not enough reg force for the frigates and subs anyways, I again say the reserves are effective. It's a boon to the Canadian taxpayer because the reserves hired to fill in the empty reg force positions are paid 85% of the reg force wage and may not recieve all of the benefits.

Not quite so ineffective as you suggest, but troubled - just like the rest of the underfunded military as it competes with the private sector paycheques and dwindling public economic resources.

Nice to see you guys get some half decent cruises. Mexico's one hell of alot more entertaining than places like Winter Harbour, Port Hardy, Masset or Bella Bella.

With cruises like this, it should go alongway to helping retention for you guys.