[PublicAnimalNo9]

eureka eureka:

But this is all a distraction; an attempt to demonise the victims. That is an art that has been perfected by the Right Wing and the propaganda machine that it created so effectively.

Yeah, like I give a damn. Typical uber-lefty bullshit. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. Don't bother taking ownership of your part of the problem. If you don't agree with me you must be a righty.

All part of the leftard mantra we've been hearing for years now.

You shits have already destroyed the justice system here with your insistance that everybody BUT the criminal is repsonsible for their actions.
And now, you want to apply that same fucking retarded thinking to the free market system. Not that I'm comparing the consumer to a criminal so don't even bother...
It's kinda funny in a way. I hear pising and moaning from select members of the left about Harper's 39% majority.
Yet here, they have a chance to take part in a democratic process that isn't rigged. They can vote with their wallets by opening or closing them to the various corporations. But instead of doing that, they'd rather complain and demand someone else do something about it. It's no wonder some of these mental midgets are unemployed.

So please oh great and wise eureka, tell me what the fuck is so "Right Wing propaganda machine" about actively boycotting a company, or companies as the case may be?
Please, bathe me in your superior leftard wisdom so that I too, may learn how to not take responsibility for my situation and demand someone else do something about it.

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

andyt andyt:

Yeah, that's it. Let's all boycott McD's and Timmies and we'll solve the problem of income inequality. Brilliant. You should take it on the road. What exactly is it you don't like about McD's and Timmies business practices? You don't want them to pay a decent minimum wage. Aside from paying their employees shit wages, what else exactly are these particular companies doing that's so bad?

Everybody agrees Occupy has to evolve to become effective. The problem are the politicians so Occupy should be occupying the politicians offices. Or occupy Parliament Hill. (Not Parliament in the sense of disrupting it.)

But jeez, coming down on occupy because the odd participant has a cup of Timmies or a Big Mac - how stupid can you get? In Vancouver, they were mostly cooking their own, donated food - which of course attracted the homeless.

Jesus Christ andy, Timmy's and McD's are just two friggin' examples. They were merely singled out to symbolize the bigger problem. But of course, context isn't exactly your forte.
Let's put it this way, a free market is actually wonderfully democratic. With a few obvious exceptions, you vote with your wallet. If I don't like the way McD's does something, I vote(spend my money) elsewhere, say BK. If they do something I'm singularily unimpressed with, there's Wendy's. If the fast food industry in general just pisses me off, I go to the grocery store, pick up some buns, ground beef and make my own fucking burger. And guess what? I even save money in the process.
Amazingly, this process works for almost any business or industry. If you don't like a corporation's take no prisoners profit driven attitude, then don't financially support that corporation. Those corporations will hear the wallets slamming shut long before the gov't does anything about the situation.
Much more effective than sitting or milling around in some park pretending you're accomplishing some noble goal.

So what exactly is your beef against Tims and McDs vs BK or Wendys? Good luck trying to boycott all large companies, you'll live a very restricted life. As for corps' profit driven attitude - that's what a corp is. They need to be regulated by government. Just how will boycotting McDs lessen economic inequality?

The protesters accomplished the goal of getting attention and getting some very serious people to agree publicly the protesters had a point. They focused the discussion on the topic. If that's all that they accomplished then if won't amount to much, if they can find the next step to take it could.

But just ragging them because they don't have some perfect plan - what's your plan and what do you do? How can I join your movement?

OWS was instigated by Kalle Lasn, the Adbusters guy. Based in Vancouver. Buy Nothing Day is coming up (Nov 25). You going to join in?

[peck420]

Buy Nothing Day?

Seriously...they need to catch up. That is my everyday except Sundays (shopping day).

I don't even carry an interac or visa any more. Once you get into the habit of not buying unless you have made a list and checked it twice, it's surprisingly hard to stop doing it.

[andyt]

Well, I guess you should lead the movement. Never made much sense to me - if you buy a bunch of crap one day a week, that doesn't make you virtuous the other 6. Buy nothing day is a good way to get the message out (the guy is a former advertising exec) but really, it's don't buy a bunch of crap you don't really need (except bicycling stuff) every day. I've way reduced my footprint over the years. I guess the biggest one is how little I use the car.

[Gunnair]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Gunnair Gunnair:

[

Well, it's easy to understand why you are in your current life position - you are simply a fucking idiot.

fidiot?

You saw it here first folks. When it's all ove the Internet, I want a cut.

No freakin' way! Make up your own stuff! Fidiot, shitiot are taken!

[Macguyver]

Gunnair Gunnair:

You bitch at Timmies and how much they pay? Boycott Timmies for better wages. Don't like the starting wage at Mcdonalds? Boycott them and let them know they're being boycotted. Don't like bailouts of Dodge? Don't buy Dodge and let them know it. Finally, don't like bailout period, vote for the candidate that has the same opinion.

Is there one...or better yet is that opinion achievable or does it exist AFTER the election? Seems to me the brightest of the American Elect sat down on the deficit and achieved exactly the same thing the OWS have achieved. NOTHING.

So who you going to vote for? The is not one candidate or one sitting member at any level of either of our governments who can make decisions in OUR best interests. And the odd ones that try... relegated to the fringes.

And BTW OWS is not so concerned about the fatties who own the companies that produce goods and services. My take is OWS means WALL STREET means those hogs who produce NOTHING and use our money, our debt and our futures to leverage their elaborate lifestyles while producing only a few toilets full of shit each day (each).

Consider this: Had Wall Street and the American banking system had the same regulations that Canada has...would we be farther ahead by denying those millions of questionable mortgages? Or would the system have taken a down swing (double black diamond down swing) for other reasons.

#1 rule of business - minimize risk. These people ignored the risk, and thus created a catastrophe. Then, they took money from the federal reserve and gave themselves a bunch of bonuses.

Next time you get paid look at the deductions, then think of the handouts/bailouts and the G20's and the waste. Me, I'm thinking of doing less business on the books and more business "cash". I wonder how many of others in my boat are sick of the waste and mismanagement? I've given enough to the thieves we call government.

[Macguyver]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

eureka eureka:

But this is all a distraction; an attempt to demonise the victims. That is an art that has been perfected by the Right Wing and the propaganda machine that it created so effectively.

Yeah, like I give a damn. Typical uber-lefty bullshit. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. Don't bother taking ownership of your part of the problem. If you don't agree with me you must be a righty.

All part of the leftard mantra we've been hearing for years now.

You shits have already destroyed the justice system here with your insistance that everybody BUT the criminal is repsonsible for their actions.
And now, you want to apply that same fucking retarded thinking to the free market system. Not that I'm comparing the consumer to a criminal so don't even bother...
It's kinda funny in a way. I hear pising and moaning from select members of the left about Harper's 39% majority.
Yet here, they have a chance to take part in a democratic process that isn't rigged. They can vote with their wallets by opening or closing them to the various corporations. But instead of doing that, they'd rather complain and demand someone else do something about it. It's no wonder some of these mental midgets are unemployed.

So please oh great and wise eureka, tell me what the fuck is so "Right Wing propaganda machine" about actively boycotting a company, or companies as the case may be?
Please, bathe me in your superior leftard wisdom so that I too, may learn how to not take responsibility for my situation and demand someone else do something about it.

How long is that mountain of debt sustainable then? And if you have a better solution than making the rich pay their fair share, please enlighten us oh Great One.

I'll spell out $15 Trillion for you again just so you can see it in real life.

$15,000,000,000,000.00

That is well over $100k per working person.

I didn't spend $800 Billion on a war in Iraq.

I didn't give big banks and industry $1.727 Trillion in bailout cash since 2008.

So please Great One, please tell the average citizen how Corporate Greed is my fault so that I may feel good about the mess that apparently me and the other 99% of North Americans have created and how much more we can pay so the rich stay rich and we stay slaves to that debt.

[ShepherdsDog]

Free market capitalism isn't the problem. It's the Eureka capitalism(something masquerading as something that it really isn't), also known as croney capitalism. Were free market rules followed these corporate entities would have failed sooner, and though there would be damage it'd be far less than it is now.

Instead, the idea of too big to fail has come into play(this includes shitholes like Greece too). The gullible governments got into bed with greedy CEOs and this where we've gone from a small leak in the reaction chamber to a full blown meltdown. Pour more fuel onto the fire...that'll stop it from spreading.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

andyt andyt:

Yeah, that's it. Let's all boycott McD's and Timmies and we'll solve the problem of income inequality. Brilliant. You should take it on the road. What exactly is it you don't like about McD's and Timmies business practices? You don't want them to pay a decent minimum wage. Aside from paying their employees shit wages, what else exactly are these particular companies doing that's so bad?

Everybody agrees Occupy has to evolve to become effective. The problem are the politicians so Occupy should be occupying the politicians offices. Or occupy Parliament Hill. (Not Parliament in the sense of disrupting it.)

But jeez, coming down on occupy because the odd participant has a cup of Timmies or a Big Mac - how stupid can you get? In Vancouver, they were mostly cooking their own, donated food - which of course attracted the homeless.

Jesus Christ andy, Timmy's and McD's are just two friggin' examples. They were merely singled out to symbolize the bigger problem. But of course, context isn't exactly your forte.
Let's put it this way, a free market is actually wonderfully democratic. With a few obvious exceptions, you vote with your wallet. If I don't like the way McD's does something, I vote(spend my money) elsewhere, say BK. If they do something I'm singularily unimpressed with, there's Wendy's. If the fast food industry in general just pisses me off, I go to the grocery store, pick up some buns, ground beef and make my own fucking burger. And guess what? I even save money in the process.
Amazingly, this process works for almost any business or industry. If you don't like a corporation's take no prisoners profit driven attitude, then don't financially support that corporation. Those corporations will hear the wallets slamming shut long before the gov't does anything about the situation.
Much more effective than sitting or milling around in some park pretending you're accomplishing some noble goal.

So what exactly is your beef against Tims and McDs vs BK or Wendys?

What exactly is your major malfunction that "representative of the problem" only means those 4 companies?

andyt andyt:

Good luck trying to boycott all large companies, you'll live a very restricted life.

Not at all, of the companies I refuse to support with my dollars, I'm not really missing anything I need, and very little I really want. For the corporations that are unavoidable, I've reduced my use/reliance on their products.

andyt andyt:

As for corps' profit driven attitude - that's what a corp is. They need to be regulated by government.

Gee whiz, thank you Captain Obvious, now I can pass my economics 101 exam.

andyt andyt:

Just how will boycotting McDs lessen economic inequality?

Still stuck in a groove eh andy? Yep, that's exactly what I said. I said if everyone boycotted McDonald's the income inequality would be a thing of the past as the wealth would be instantly redistributed. Give yer fucking head a shake.

andyt andyt:

The protesters accomplished the goal of getting attention and getting some very serious people to agree publicly the protesters had a point. They focused the discussion on the topic. If that's all that they accomplished then if won't amount to much, if they can find the next step to take it could.

I've been giving the next step but apparently you'd rather someone else take care of the problem because my way would "deny the peasants their coffee and burgers". Self denial is a choice. If you don't have the courage to really stand up for your convictions and prefer continuing to hand someone your money because they offer cheap/convenient products or services, then just shut the hell up already.

andyt andyt:

But just ragging them because they don't have some perfect plan - what's your plan and what do you do? How can I join your movement?

No, I'm ragging on them because they refuse to see the entire problem. Same trouble you're having apparently.
OWS was instigated by Kalle Lasn, the Adbusters guy. Based in Vancouver. Buy Nothing Day is coming up (Nov 25). You going to join in?[/quote] Nah, after all the preaching I've been doing I'm gonna spend the day buying products that used to be made in Canada but are now made in China(even though I don't really need 'em) because a shareholder's bottom line is more important than jobs. When I'm done my shopping spree, I'm gonna march in front of Oshawa City Hall and protest corporate greed hogs.
Later than night, I'll come back here and insist that it was all the the fault of greedy corporations that I supported them financially.
Sound about right?

[Tricks]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Free market capitalism isn't the problem. It's the Eureka capitalism(something masquerading as something that it really isn't), also known as croney capitalism. Were free market rules followed these corporate entities would have failed sooner, and though there would be damage it'd be far less than it is now.

Instead, the idea of too big to fail has come into play(this includes shitholes like Greece too). The gullible governments got into bed with greedy CEOs and this where we've gone from a small leak in the reaction chamber to a full blown meltdown. Pour more fuel onto the fire...that'll stop it from spreading.

[Gunnair]

Macguyver Macguyver:

Gunnair Gunnair:

You bitch at Timmies and how much they pay? Boycott Timmies for better wages. Don't like the starting wage at Mcdonalds? Boycott them and let them know they're being boycotted. Don't like bailouts of Dodge? Don't buy Dodge and let them know it. Finally, don't like bailout period, vote for the candidate that has the same opinion.

Is there one...or better yet is that opinion achievable or does it exist AFTER the election? Seems to me the brightest of the American Elect sat down on the deficit and achieved exactly the same thing the OWS have achieved. NOTHING.

So who you going to vote for? The is not one candidate or one sitting member at any level of either of our governments who can make decisions in OUR best interests. And the odd ones that try... relegated to the fringes.

And BTW OWS is not so concerned about the fatties who own the companies that produce goods and services. My take is OWS means WALL STREET means those hogs who produce NOTHING and use our money, our debt and our futures to leverage their elaborate lifestyles while producing only a few toilets full of shit each day (each).

Consider this: Had Wall Street and the American banking system had the same regulations that Canada has...would we be farther ahead by denying those millions of questionable mortgages? Or would the system have taken a down swing (double black diamond down swing) for other reasons.

#1 rule of business - minimize risk. These people ignored the risk, and thus created a catastrophe. Then, they took money from the federal reserve and gave themselves a bunch of bonuses.

Next time you get paid look at the deductions, then think of the handouts/bailouts and the G20's and the waste. Me, I'm thinking of doing less business on the books and more business "cash". I wonder how many of others in my boat are sick of the waste and mismanagement? I've given enough to the thieves we call government.

For the US, we'll see next year. For us, the CPC minority did the bailouts and spending spree before the election and won a majority.

With respect to the underground economy, fair enough. I try to avoid it as much as possible because frankly, the millions not paid means projects aren't done - which is why some of our raods are junk around here.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Macguyver Macguyver:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

eureka eureka:

But this is all a distraction; an attempt to demonise the victims. That is an art that has been perfected by the Right Wing and the propaganda machine that it created so effectively.

Yeah, like I give a damn. Typical uber-lefty bullshit. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. Don't bother taking ownership of your part of the problem. If you don't agree with me you must be a righty.

All part of the leftard mantra we've been hearing for years now.

You shits have already destroyed the justice system here with your insistance that everybody BUT the criminal is repsonsible for their actions.
And now, you want to apply that same fucking retarded thinking to the free market system. Not that I'm comparing the consumer to a criminal so don't even bother...
It's kinda funny in a way. I hear pising and moaning from select members of the left about Harper's 39% majority.
Yet here, they have a chance to take part in a democratic process that isn't rigged. They can vote with their wallets by opening or closing them to the various corporations. But instead of doing that, they'd rather complain and demand someone else do something about it. It's no wonder some of these mental midgets are unemployed.

So please oh great and wise eureka, tell me what the fuck is so "Right Wing propaganda machine" about actively boycotting a company, or companies as the case may be?
Please, bathe me in your superior leftard wisdom so that I too, may learn how to not take responsibility for my situation and demand someone else do something about it.

How long is that mountain of debt sustainable then? And if you have a better solution than making the rich pay their fair share, please enlighten us oh Great One.

I'll spell out $15 Trillion for you again just so you can see it in real life.

$15,000,000,000,000.00

That is well over $100k per working person.

I didn't spend $800 Billion on a war in Iraq.

I didn't give big banks and industry $1.727 Trillion in bailout cash since 2008.

Ok let me be more specific about that damn I don't give. I don't give a damn about the mess the US got itself into. In case you haven't noticed cuz yer too friggin' busy playing brain-dead partisan hack, I'm talking about CANADIANS and the movement in Canada! Cuz after all, this thread is about occupy Toronto n'est ce pas?
I've already agreed(long before you showed up) that the average American got royally fucked. I've also concurred that the average American had a pretty fucking valid complaint. They got screwed by a sector that most average people have little direct dealings with, so take your US figures and stick 'em somewhere. No one is asking you to pay back your 100K portion. I would assume ostensibly it's because yer NOT American, so I'm lost as to why you're lamenting that you didn't spend the money in Iraq or help bail out the banks. Last time I checked, Canada spent three fifths of fuck-all fighting in Iraq and not one Canadian bank recieved a penny in bail outs.

So please Great One, please tell the average citizen how Corporate Greed is my fault so that I may feel good about the mess that apparently me and the other 99% of North Americans have created and how much more we can pay so the rich stay rich and we stay slaves to that debt.[/quote]
I've already told you why the consumer is partly responsible. If you're to fucking stupid to comprehend the message, well I'm sorry but there's really no way to dumb it down any further without involving a series of grunts and snorts.

[Caelon]

Brenda Brenda:

Caelon Caelon:

This is a true story of one man. His family was poor with just the father working at a low hourly rate. They had 6 kids and he was the youngest boy. He wore hand me down clothes. The other kids made fun of him as his clothes were many years out of fashion. He won an award for academic and sports excellence when he was 14 that saw him walk up on to the stage in front of the whole school. He was so embarrased about the clothes he was wearing he couldn't hold back the tears. That day changed his life. He swore he would never live like his family ever again. He did whatever it took to succeed in life. Today he would be considered wealthy by most. He has the usual trappings of a nice home, car, etc, but he also spends his time encouraging others to succeed like he has. He gives back on a daily basis.

It can be done, you just have to want it enough.

I am sure dad made $12/hr, feeding his kids AND saving. [/sarcasm]

I believe you misread the story. The dad made less than $10/hr and there were no extras. The son is the one who started from poverty and made his way in life to a position most would consider well to do. He had the desire to leave a lifestyle of hand me downs and living in poverty. His parents did not have any money to help him on his way. He got to his current position by shear hard work. The point of the story is if you want something badly enough and are willing to work for it it is achievable.

[EyeBrock]

I think we should debate this stuff forever. The 100 or so pages from various threads on this sure have changed mine and andy's viewpoints.

Maybe andy and eureka could start a new thread on the same topic. It's so awesome.

[eureka]

First, P.A. the "underclass" does have ownership of their part of the problem but they are powerless to do anything about it.

Then, the "propaganda machine" is the one I wrote of earlier. And it is nothing but a propaganda machine. In the USA it is those six "Think Tanks" that were set up by six wealthy American families in the 1970s for the sole purpose of developing propaganda to bring about a Conservative counter revolution.

And they have been immensely successful. Look at your own perceptions. You have swallowed their message hook, line and sinker.

I have to wonder how you come to the conclusion that some people boycotting some corporations is going to change the economic dynamic. You boycott Tim's. I will boycott Starbucks. Some one else might not like Country Time.

So where are we?

Free Market Capitalism is a favourite emotive of those Tanks. There was never Free Market Capitalism: not even in the very bad old days of the early Industrial Revolution. The successful version of Capitalism that we grew up with is "welfare Capitalism." That is what is being ewroded and that is the why there is now such suffering under a kind of Capitalism that was discarded two generations ago.

The Criminal Justice system is quite another issue but one that is falling to the same type of ideology. We could debate that one in an appropriate place but not mix it up with this unless you want to discuss the number of criminals that are being created out of economic necessity.