[Newsbot]

Title: Ottawa eyes Arctic co-operation with Danes as Harper heads north
Category: World
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2009-08-16 12:41:56
Canadian

[bootlegga]

$1:

"They keep promising and repackaging things," said Huebert, one of the country's foremost academics in Arctic study.

"I'm seeing a lot of smoke and mirrors and not a lot of action."

That's what most of us see too.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Governments have blown so much smoke up our asses over the years, it's amazing we all don't have colon cancer

[ridenrain]

I'd like to see more too but right now protecting Canadian troops in Chretien's war is more important. Aside from those subs, what have the Libs got to show after their decade of majorities?

One of the largest gaffs was Martin's decision to not include Canada in the Missile Defence program.

$1:

While campaigning to replace Prime Minister Jean Chrétien as head of the Liberal Party in April 2003, Martin said, “If a missile is going over Canadian airspace, I want to know, I want to be at the table.”

While it would have cost Canada very little and had eveything to do with the arctic, Paul Martin said no.

[bootlegga]

About the same as Harper has done after 3.5 years in office...nothing. And there's no excuse for it.

But asking who did this or that a decade ago is useless. It's like asking how much rearming did Bennett in the mid-1930s, or why didn't we Mulroney buy those nuclear subs and Class 8 icebreaker he promised? The past is the past. Instead of pointing fingers, we need a solution. The mistake Chretien really made was not building Mulroney's arctic surveillance network.

BMD would have done nothing to allow us to protect and patrol the Arctic. Signing on wouldn't have made a difference one way or another.

We need ships, subs and planes up there to patrol year round, nothing less. The AOPVs Harper says he will build (now down to 6 from 8 BTW), are only good for maybe four months of the year. What happens from September to April?

[ridenrain]

Right now the priority must be protecting Canadians in Afghanistan.

Denying the past is just a red herring. You know full well that Harper's ship contracts could end just as quickly as Mulroney's helicopter contracts if his minority government falls.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Right now the priority must be protecting Canadians in Afghanistan.

That's BS. Harper reneged on a promise big time. The CCGS John Diefenbaker (a heavy icebreaker capable of almost year round operations recently promised by Harper) is going to cost $720 million. Harper's six slushbreakers will cost $3.1 billion. You don't have to be a genius at math to see we could have bought the three heavy icebreakers he promised back in 2006. He just reneged on his promise...sound familiar "I will scrap the GST!" "I will buy 12 nuclear submarines" etc

Duck, dodge and deny all you want, the fact is Harper is just as full of shit as all the other politicos in Ottawa.

ridenrain ridenrain:

Denying the past is just a red herring. You know full well that Harper's ship contracts could end just as quickly as Mulroney's helicopter contracts if his minority government falls.

You mean like how the Arrow contract ended once the Conservatives got elected...

We can toss partisan jabs all day, but that accomplishes exactly what Harper has, nothing.

Like I said, stop pointing fingers and start looking for solutions...or is that all you've got in your play book?

[Akhenaten]

No Harper has not done all he could, should or said he would. I agree.

$1:

About the same as Harper has done after 3.5 years in office...nothing. And there's no excuse for it.

You're comparing his 3.5 years of minority government, now in recession, to the Liberals decade of majority governments? He hasn't done nothing just not as much as he said he would. Whereas I distinctly remember the Liberals years being nothing but cuts cuts and more cuts to the military. Including billions for 3 subs that don't work.

$1:

Throughout the 1990s, successive budget cuts forced further reductions in personnel, the number of bases, and the fighting ability of the CF. There was criticism of these budget cuts, as military spending was reduced to 1.4% of Canada's gross domestic product. However, the Conservative Cabinet appointed in 2006 made efforts through the Canada First Defence Strategy to purchase new equipment and training, as well as the re-establishment of an airborne land force, now called the Canadian Special Operations Regiment. More funds were also put towards recruitment, which had been dwindling throughout the 1980s and '90s, possibly because the Canadian populace had come to perceive the CF as peacekeepers rather than as soldiers, as shown in a 2008 survey conducted for the Department of National Defence. The poll found that nearly two thirds of Canadians agreed with the country's participation in the invasion of Afghanistan, and that the military should be stronger, but also that the purpose of the forces should be different, such as more focused on responding to natural disasters.[21] The current CDS, Walter Natynczyk, said later that year that while recruiting has become more successful, the CF was facing a problem with its rate of loss of existing members, which increased between 2006 and 2008 from 6% to 9.2% annually.[22]

link

[ridenrain]

$1:

Canada has spent $7.7 billion to $10.5 billion on costs related to its mission in the past six years, and may spend $13.9 billion to $18.1 billion by the end of the 2010-11 budget year, according to The Fiscal Impact of the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan tabled by parliamentary budget officer Kevin Page on Thursday.

Like it or not, Canadians are more concerned about their sons and daughters already in harms way than something that everyone has ignored for the last decade.

In an ideal world, we'd do everything all the time but finishing the fight we're in is the only thing we can do right now. All considered, this minority government has already done more for the arctic in their 3 years than past 13 years of Liberal rule. With that in mind, it's easy to ignore your bluster.

[bootlegga]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No Harper has not done all he could, should or said he would. I agree.

$1:

About the same as Harper has done after 3.5 years in office...nothing. And there's no excuse for it.

You're comparing his 3.5 years of minority government, now in recession, to the Liberals decade of majority governments? He hasn't done nothing just not as much as he said he would. Whereas I distinctly remember the Liberals years being nothing but cuts cuts and more cuts to the military. Including billions for 3 subs that don't work.

$1:

Throughout the 1990s, successive budget cuts forced further reductions in personnel, the number of bases, and the fighting ability of the CF. There was criticism of these budget cuts, as military spending was reduced to 1.4% of Canada's gross domestic product. However, the Conservative Cabinet appointed in 2006 made efforts through the Canada First Defence Strategy to purchase new equipment and training, as well as the re-establishment of an airborne land force, now called the Canadian Special Operations Regiment. More funds were also put towards recruitment, which had been dwindling throughout the 1980s and '90s, possibly because the Canadian populace had come to perceive the CF as peacekeepers rather than as soldiers, as shown in a 2008 survey conducted for the Department of National Defence. The poll found that nearly two thirds of Canadians agreed with the country's participation in the invasion of Afghanistan, and that the military should be stronger, but also that the purpose of the forces should be different, such as more focused on responding to natural disasters.[21] The current CDS, Walter Natynczyk, said later that year that while recruiting has become more successful, the CF was facing a problem with its rate of loss of existing members, which increased between 2006 and 2008 from 6% to 9.2% annually.[22]

link

So many holes I don't know where to start...

The subs were essentially free, as we traded training time at our bases in return for the subs. The refit has cost about $900 million. Expensive yes, but not the anywhere close to the Billions you mention.

The Liberals and defence spending argument has been done to death, but let's point out a few things, just for shits and giggles.

The LAVs our troops are using to such great effect in Afghanistan...purchased by the Liberals in the 90s. The Griffon helos escorting the leased Chinooks...bought by the Liberals in the 90s. The Chinooks, were sold by Mulroney, not the Liberals as is commonly believed. The initial cuts to manpower were also due to Mulroney extracting a 'peace dividend' from the CF. Yes, the Libs cut defence spending drastically in the 90s, but they also cut spending in EVERY other federal department. They definitely made errors, like not re-ordering replacements for the Sea Kings after cancelling the EH-101 contract. But look at after 9/11. The Liberals invested heavily in defence, almost doubling the budget in 5 years, until Martin was ousted by Harper.

What has Harper done since then? He spent $3.5 billion on four C-17s, which are so expensive to operate that the CF STILL rents the inferior Russian AN-124s we were told were not an option. He cut spending on refurbishing our fleet of patrol planes, dropping active airframes from 18 to 10. He announced 'Canada First', and then postponed several of the key elements of that program. He bought 80 used tanks from the Netherlands (transported to Afghanistan by those totally inferior Russian rentals). That was a good purchase. Then he dithered for two years before doing what critics had told him to do right away, which was lease some old Chinooks from Boeing. They finally went operational this year. He has finally ordered 15 new Chinooks (down from the promised 16) a few weeks ago. He's promised hundreds of billions in defence spending over the next 20 years, but he used the old political trick of simply adding up what he will spend on defence, not adding up new spending. Using his methods, he will wind up spending only a few billion more than Martin and the Liberals would have.

Harper's big defence spending promises...roughly $1 billion a year more since he was elected, which, again, is what Martin's budget's had basically projected.

And no Harper hasn't done anything substantial for Arctic defence. He initially promised three heavy armed icebreakers (capable of moving through 2 metre thick - OLD - ice). That changed last year to 6-8 medium icebreakers (capable of moving through 1 metre - NEW - ice). A month ago, it dropped to 6, because they're too cheap/broke to buy eight. The cost of the contract? Roughly $3.1 billion. The cost of the John Diefenbaker he promised recently (a heavy, unarmed icebreaker) - $720 million. so the money is there, the will is not. He also promised to build a deep water port at Nansivik. Has it even been started? Nope.

Hence...nothing done. I don't really see much difference between what Harper has done and what Martin had promised to do.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

All considered, this minority government has already done more for the arctic in their 3 years than past 13 years of Liberal rule.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

[ridenrain]

You might have credability if anyone other than the Libs and NDP supported you. As it is, Dion wanted to turn the whole thing into a park and the NDP never left Toronto.
Bring it up after 10 more years of Conservative rule and we'll see who did more.

[poquas]

ridenrain ridenrain:

You might have credability if anyone other than the Libs and NDP supported you. As it is, Dion wanted to turn the whole thing into a park and the NDP never left Toronto.
Bring it up after 10 more years of Conservative rule and we'll see who did more.

...and you have no credibility. In 10 years Harper will be nothing but a bad memory and you'll be bitching about what ever party is in power then!

[ridenrain]

I was reading aboot Northern Operation Nanook 09 over on The Torch, and DND said this was a "one of three major sovereignty operations conducted every year by the Government of Canada in Canada's North", yet I can't find anything about this ever happening during the Liberal admins. I see an 08 and 09 but nothing earlier.

If I remember, when Harper got in back in 06, they had a huge mission that was the largest for a decade. Maybe the decade since Mulroney?

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.c ... ok-09.html

[bootlegga]

Sure they did, you just need to look in the right places...

$1:

Exercise NARWHAL 2002

Exercise NARWHAL 02, a joint exercise between Canadian Forces Northern Area and Maritime Forces Atlantic personnel, took place in July/August 2002. Canadian Forces Northern Area personnel and RCMP members conducted a sovereignty patrol on Resolution Island. Maritime coastal defence vessels (MCDVs), HMCS Goose Bay and HMCS Summerside, conducted port visits to Iqaluit and Kimmirut. The MCDVs also conducted fisheries patrols and provided communications interoperability with personnel deployed on Resolution Island. 440 Transport Squadron Twin Otter aircraft, based in Yellowknife, N.W.T., provided air force support.

Exercise NARWHAL 2004

Exercise NARWHAL 04 was held in August 2004 in the Cumberland Peninsula area of Baffin Island, Nunavut, primarily in Pangnirtung and Iqaluit. The main scenario for the exercise involved locating a downed simulated foreign satellite that had crashed on Canadian territory. Exercise NARWHAL 04 comprised about 600 sailors, soldiers and air men and air women from the following military organizations:

* Canadian Forces Northern Area Headquarters (CFNA HQ, now JTFN)
* 427 Tactical Helicopter Squadron
* 440 Transport Squadron
* G Company, 2nd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment
* HMCS Montreal
* Canadian Forces Experimentation Centre (CFEC)
* Directorate of Space Development (D Space D)

The Canadian Coast Guard Ship Henry Larsen also participated in the exercise.

Exercise NARWHAL 2005

Exercise NARWHAL 05 was a tabletop exercise which took place in September 2005 in Yellowknife, N.W.T. No troops were deployed for this exercise. Participants discussed scenarios and what each organization would do in response to the events presented.

The two scenarios discussed by exercise participants were:

* Threats to the oil and gas industry in the Northwest Territories; and
* Major airline disaster in the Arctic.

Personnel from the following organizations participated in the two-day exercise:

* Canadian Forces Northern Area Headquarters (CFNA HQ, now JTFN)
* Exercise staff from National Defence Headquarters and subordinate headquarters
* National Energy Board
* Enbridge Pipelines
* Imperial Oil Resources
* "G" Division Royal Canadian Mounted Police
* "M" Division Royal Canadian Mounted Police
* Emergency Measures Organizations from Yukon and N.W.T.
* National SAR Secretariat
* 1 Canadian Air Division
* NORAD and US Northern Command Training Staff

http://www.canadacom.forces.gc.ca/nr-sp ... 02-eng.asp

And that took me all of 30 seconds with Google...nice try though. I bet if I was desperate to prove you wrong, I could find more, but I'm off to have dinner. Ta ta!