[Newsbot]

<strong>Title: </strong> <a href="/link.php?id=26330" target="_blank">Canadian air force hopes to be spared</a> (click to view)

<strong>Category:</strong> <a href="/news/topic/13-military" target="_blank">Military</a>
<strong>Posted By: </strong> <a href="/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=Hyack" target="_blank">Hyack</a>
<strong>Date: </strong> 2007-10-22 07:31:46
<strong>Canadian</strong>

[Arctic_Menace]

Weren't we supposed to be getting Alenia C-27J Spartans as our SAR Plane replacement?

[BartSimpson]

Sounds like there'll be no new SAR planes till well after 2015 - probably more like 2025 the way politics works in these things.

The planes will be sixty years old when they're retired.

Almost as bad as the USAF that keeps putting off replacing the B-52.

[DerbyX]

$1:

The former Liberal government set aside $3 billion in 2004 to replace the country’s fixed-wing search planes, including the Buffalo and the air force’s older model C-130 Hercules.

But the project has languished in the Defence Department and has been knocked down the priority list by other big ticket purchases, including heavy-lift C-17s and CH-47 Chinook battlefield helicopters needed to support the ongoing war in Afghanistan.

I wonder why we aren't hearing about how Harper hates the military, well at least the airforce anyway?

[sasquatch2]

Perhaps the prospect of repowering these robust airframes with newer engines is a very viable option.

The USAF has pursued a very cost effective path with it's B52's. Updating electronics systems is not a big problem considering those roomy monsters are not compact devices. They are still a very potent air asset.

The DC3 is/was a shining example of how far a well engineered aircraft can remain in service. A few years back while passing Pearson, thanks to the usual afternoon slowdown of 401, I saw a gooney bird waddle onto the runway, crack the throttles with a big blue cloud and shuffle off down the runway. It seemed soooo slow then the tail rose and it slowly staggered into the air. It's gear retracted as usual one at a time.....meanwhile the jets had to wait until it slowly drifted away for the airfield. It was sorta net---a blast from the past.

The deciding factor in discarding/replacing and renovation is the air-frame's fatigue factor. This is not a high performance war-bird. It's replacement realistically will not go any faster, just be easier to maintain.

[BartSimpson]

Personally, I've never understood the military fascination for expensive aircraft in low-speed and low-threat applications like SAR.

The DeHavilland Twin Otter would be a great SAR aircraft as it can cruise as slow as 110 knots and it has a range of up to 1100nm with the larger size auxilliary tanks installed. The thing is versatile enough that a refueling boom could easily be added to it for extended range.

And they're cheap and you don't need any fancy ground support for them.

But militaries being what they are the SAR craft that finally gets picked out will be some high tech monstrosity built by a committee that cares more about getting contracts into Quebec and the right parts of Ontario than in putting the right aircraft into the right role. And after a year of crappy service the old planes will be rehabbed and put back into service for another ten years while the politicians figure out new ways to milk more money from the program for their ridings.

[ridenrain]

DerbyX DerbyX:

$1:

The former Liberal government set aside $3 billion in 2004 to replace the country’s fixed-wing search planes, including the Buffalo and the air force’s older model C-130 Hercules.

But the project has languished in the Defence Department and has been knocked down the priority list by other big ticket purchases, including heavy-lift C-17s and CH-47 Chinook battlefield helicopters needed to support the ongoing war in Afghanistan.

I wonder why we aren't hearing about how Harper hates the military, well at least the airforce anyway?

swing.. and a miss.
They probably had more important things to pay for, like boots and vests for the troops stuck in Chretiens war.

[ziggy]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Personally, I've never understood the military fascination for expensive aircraft in low-speed and low-threat applications like SAR.

The DeHavilland Twin Otter would be a great SAR aircraft as it can cruise as slow as 110 knots and it has a range of up to 1100nm with the larger size auxilliary tanks installed. The thing is versatile enough that a refueling boom could easily be added to it for extended range.

And they're cheap and you don't need any fancy ground support for them.

But militaries being what they are the SAR craft that finally gets picked out will be some high tech monstrosity built by a committee that cares more about getting contracts into Quebec and the right parts of Ontario than in putting the right aircraft into the right role. And after a year of crappy service the old planes will be rehabbed and put back into service for another ten years while the politicians figure out new ways to milk more money from the program for their ridings.

Twin otters are nice.

[Arctic_Menace]

$1:

They probably had more important things to pay for, like boots and vests for the troops stuck in Chretiens war.

Oh, now you've just sunken even lower.

How ya gonna explain this one?

[ridenrain]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

$1:

They probably had more important things to pay for, like boots and vests for the troops stuck in Chretiens war.

Oh, now you've just sunken even lower.

How ya gonna explain this one?

Which part? The equipment shortages or the fact that Chretien put us in Afghanistan?

$1:

An unclassified "CanForGen" message, a directive from the head of the army to all supply depots, says several common sizes of the Canadian Forces' black high-topped combat boots are out of stock and several others "are at critical levels."

The army quartermasters are ordered to issue instead "substitute boots" such as the heavier all-weather combat boots or older, used footwear. "It is our hope that we will be able to at least ensure all new recruits have at least one pair of boots."

Critics say the boot shortage makes a mockery of the Liberal government's pledge, made during last summer's federal election campaign, to bolster the ranks of the Canadian Forces by 5,000 new troops and to add another 3,000 part-time soldiers to the reserves.

That was reported in 2005 but the problem has been around befotre that.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

DerbyX DerbyX:

$1:

The former Liberal government set aside $3 billion in 2004 to replace the country’s fixed-wing search planes, including the Buffalo and the air force’s older model C-130 Hercules.

But the project has languished in the Defence Department and has been knocked down the priority list by other big ticket purchases, including heavy-lift C-17s and CH-47 Chinook battlefield helicopters needed to support the ongoing war in Afghanistan.

I wonder why we aren't hearing about how Harper hates the military, well at least the airforce anyway?

swing.. and a miss.
They probably had more important things to pay for, like boots and vests for the troops stuck in Chretiens war.

So the Cons spent $3 billion on boots and vests? Hardly...

The fact is that Harper had other priorities, like the the C-17s. Had we bought something more affordable, we'd have been able to afford both. As it is now, we have to pick and choose which program we want to fund. Doesn't seem like things have changed all that much with Harper in power...

[DerbyX]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

$1:

They probably had more important things to pay for, like boots and vests for the troops stuck in Chretiens war.

Oh, now you've just sunken even lower.

How ya gonna explain this one?

Which part? The equipment shortages or the fact that Chretien put us in Afghanistan?

$1:

An unclassified "CanForGen" message, a directive from the head of the army to all supply depots, says several common sizes of the Canadian Forces' black high-topped combat boots are out of stock and several others "are at critical levels."

The army quartermasters are ordered to issue instead "substitute boots" such as the heavier all-weather combat boots or older, used footwear. "It is our hope that we will be able to at least ensure all new recruits have at least one pair of boots."

Critics say the boot shortage makes a mockery of the Liberal government's pledge, made during last summer's federal election campaign, to bolster the ranks of the Canadian Forces by 5,000 new troops and to add another 3,000 part-time soldiers to the reserves.

That was reported in 2005 but the problem has been around befotre that.

perhaps you should ask about the old standby of burning surplus boots in order to insure your budget isn't cut.

Swing and a miss for you. The military is responsible for buying mundane equipment like boots.

The fact is that Harper put a big ticket Liberal purchase on hold and if the reverse had happened you would be screaming about it.

[Arctic_Menace]

$1:

Which part? The equipment shortages or the fact that Chretien put us in Afghanistan?

Aghanistan.

[ridenrain]

What.. you don't want a war tacked on to Chretiens legacy? There's more than enough room after the corruption, abuse of power and arrogance that set him apart from other PMs.


Here's another scathing attack on the stupid cuts the Libs made to the defence budget:

$1:

In a speech to a defence group on Friday, Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier said the Canadian Forces dealt with troubled times from 1994 onwards when the Liberals worked to balance the federal budget with heavy budget cuts.

The Canadian Forces had only now begun to “fully realize the negative impact of the defense expenditure reduction from 1994 and the lasting, most negative, legacy that they brought into effect which has to be put right,” the outspoken general told the annual meeting of the Conference of Defence Associations.

The military was deprived of money it needed for education, training, postings, equipment, fleets as the same time as it increased the number of operations, he said.

“Those actions, dollar deprived, have now led to some deep wounds in … the Canadian Forces over this past, what I would call, a decade of darkness,” Hillier said Friday.

Derby: You can bleat all you want, in fact that's all you can do. You can deflect by saying Martin saved Canada by robbing other nessesary departments, but it's looking very stupid right now.

[DerbyX]

ridenrain ridenrain:

What.. you don't want a war tacked on to Chretiens legacy? There's more than enough room after the corruption, abuse of power and arrogance that set him apart from other PMs.


Here's another scathing attack on the stupid cuts the Libs made to the defence budget:

$1:

In a speech to a defence group on Friday, Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier said the Canadian Forces dealt with troubled times from 1994 onwards when the Liberals worked to balance the federal budget with heavy budget cuts.

The Canadian Forces had only now begun to “fully realize the negative impact of the defense expenditure reduction from 1994 and the lasting, most negative, legacy that they brought into effect which has to be put right,” the outspoken general told the annual meeting of the Conference of Defence Associations.

The military was deprived of money it needed for education, training, postings, equipment, fleets as the same time as it increased the number of operations, he said.

“Those actions, dollar deprived, have now led to some deep wounds in … the Canadian Forces over this past, what I would call, a decade of darkness,” Hillier said Friday.

Derby: You can bleat all you want, in fact that's all you can do. You can deflect by saying Martin saved Canada by robbing other nessesary departments, but it's looking very stupid right now.

You can bleat all you want and cry that Martin "robbed" other departments but its you who are looking as bitterly partisan beyond all measure.

$1:

Given Canada’s budget crisis, the CF could have been asked
by the government to do with even smaller forces. For fiscal
year 1994-95, the federal deficit will be $37.9 billion, or
more than 3 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), while the
accumulated debt amounts to $546.1 billion. By fiscal year
1996-97, the government hopes to bring the deficit down to
$24.3 billion, but interest on the debt will still be $50.7
billion or nearly a quarter of the federal budget.30
With roughly a third of the debt in foreign hands, there
has been continual downward pressure on the Canadian dollar
which now stands at just above 70 cents U.S. International
money markets were demanding a tough budget from Finance
Minister Paul Martin, and they got one. Ottawa intends to
implement major reductions in expenditures, including on
social services such as health care and welfare. This will
entail cutting back and changing the transfer payments to the
provinces. In addition, government operating expenditures will
be slashed. Over the next 3 years the federal civil service
will be reduced by 14 percent or 45,000.31
Under these circumstances, DND is fortunate not to have
suffered further reductions. It will still have the largest
operating budget of any government department. While the
Canadian Forces might contend otherwise, it can be argued with
regard to the 1994 White Paper on defense and 1995 federal
budget, that as the slogan of the famous American beer from
Milwaukee used to boast "it doesn’t get any better than this."

$1:

The 1994 Canadian White Paper on defense gets it right this
time. But this is not so much because it offers an impeccably
reasoned and clairvoyant national security strategy. But,
rather because it is largely consistent with overall foreign
policy objectives, what the public purse is capable of paying
for and what the Canadian people are likely to support. As
such, it responds to the challenge of a more secure, yet
unpredictable security situation abroad and the more
precarious, yet inescapably certain realities at home.

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/resear ... canada.pdf

Just because a deluded general who knows nothing about running a country and who thinks his dept was the only to suffer and that somehow the taxpayers deserved no education and healthcare for their money changes nothing.

You are being a dishonest partisan hack who simply expected the Libs to lower taxes, reduce the deficit at the same time as increasing spending.

You sir are dishonest beyond all measure. You hold no such sharp criticism for your beloved Mulroney who did more financial damage to the country then all the rest of the PMs combined and that set the stage for the neccessay actions back in '93.

You sir are dishonest beyond all measure because you simply ignore the fact that Martin most certianlt put in the cash when he had it.

N'uff said.