[PluggyRug]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

It's time to put an end to zoos.

And all other forms of public housing.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Yet another reason to get rid of zoos in favour of wildlife sanctuaries.

Zoos generate revenue that's used to support wildlife sanctuaries. Where's the revenue supposed to come from for the wildelife sancturaries if there are no zoos to support them?

Raise taxes, right?

When have I once advocated to raise taxes?

People will support wildlife sanctuaries, just as they always have. And who said zoos support them? Zoos have a tough enough time supporting themselves without supporting other charities.

All the Zoos I have ever seen have just been concentration camps for animals. There is no need to torture animals like that.

[ShepherdsDog]

Strutz Strutz:

A sad story for sure.

A young child falls into the enclosure, which should not have happened to begin with. You can blame the zoo for an inadequate set-up, which of course is a factor but another part of it is an example of why youngsters have to be watched all the time, they move so fast and can get into trouble so easily.

It seems the gorilla became more agitated when people started screaming and freaking out. Typical human response unfortunately. The gorilla responded by trying to take the child away from view of them and of course that was perceived as putting the child in further danger which is why the zoo responded they way they did.

It's a shame.

Part of the problem is that gorilla young are a lot more robust than our young, so even if the silver back was being 'gentle and protective', there was still a chance of further unintended serious injury to a human child, who was likely already injured by the fall.

It's the same with other large mammals. What is a warning slap or nip for a young from a big cat or bear, can rip open a human.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

When have I once advocated to raise taxes?

Because when government bans a private activity they almost always end up subsidizing it.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

People will support wildlife sanctuaries, just as they always have. And who said zoos support them? Zoos have a tough enough time supporting themselves without supporting other charities.

All the Zoos I have ever seen have just been concentration camps for animals. There is no need to torture animals like that.

Most zoos are the best educators for wildlife preservation. Like the gorillas if no one ever sees one in person then the animals are just pictures on the net and they lose their importance.

But when you see one in person...damn.

[andyt]

People know all about dinosaurs yet nobody's ever seen one in a zoo. Learning about animals from zoos is like going to prisons to learn about people. You want zoos for voles and snakes and such, great. But the large mammals, forget about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-beko ... 15614.html

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

People know all about dinosaurs yet nobody's ever seen one in a zoo.

And no one gives a shit about 'saving the dinosaurs' so I'm not sure how this helps you make a point.

andyt andyt:

Learning about animals from zoos is like going to prisons to learn about people.

You've never been in a prison. It's quite educational and you do learn quite a lot about people when you see the very worst of what they do to each other.

andyt andyt:

You want zoos for voles and snakes and such, great. But the large mammals, forget about it.

You just need larger zoos. Like safari parks where the large animals are free to roam.

[BeaverFever]

Lemmy Lemmy:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Unfortunately the gorillas will continue to decline as they and their habitats are destroyed in Africa by farmers and poachers. Governments have to be a little more proactive and aggressive in protecting both.

Why are there so few whales and so many chickens? Get McDonalds to put gorilla on the menu and their numbers will flourish. If you want to save a species, start eating it. Give it an economic reason to exist.

Those chickens aren't wild animals you know, they're farm animals. Protecting the animal in the wild is the whole point.

Besides, farmed gorilla is bland

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

When have I once advocated to raise taxes?

Because when government bans a private activity they almost always end up subsidizing it.

Nor did I advocate governments banning them! They should disappear, because it's the right thing to do for the animals!

Whether through attrition or lack of support, Zoos should go the way of Traveling Circuses. And for the same reason. Governments don't have to ban them, but they also don't have to let them repopulate or expand either.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

People will support wildlife sanctuaries, just as they always have. And who said zoos support them? Zoos have a tough enough time supporting themselves without supporting other charities.

All the Zoos I have ever seen have just been concentration camps for animals. There is no need to torture animals like that.

Most zoos are the best educators for wildlife preservation. Like the gorillas if no one ever sees one in person then the animals are just pictures on the net and they lose their importance.

But when you see one in person...damn.

I don't think the education factor is worth the sad existence forced on an animal that thinks and feels. Elephants, gorillas, lions - it doesn't matter. I've never seen a live gorilla, but I still know it's importance. There are other mediums to get that information. Like in that Documentary i posted earlier. They had a 'funeral' for a poached silverback - and I could see just how massive that beast was! I don't have to see it in person, and if I ever do need to, there are safaris available that can put me in smelling distance of one.

Such a safari is on my bucket list.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

People know all about dinosaurs yet nobody's ever seen one in a zoo.

And no one gives a shit about 'saving the dinosaurs' so I'm not sure how this helps you make a point.

It's about your point of zoos educating people. People are very interested and educated about dinosaurs without ever seeing one in a zoo.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

Learning about animals from zoos is like going to prisons to learn about people.

You've never been in a prison. It's quite educational and you do learn quite a lot about people when you see the very worst of what they do to each other.

1. You don't know if that's true. 2. Is the behavior in prison how you want people to learn about animals?

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

You want zoos for voles and snakes and such, great. But the large mammals, forget about it.

You just need larger zoos. Like safari parks where the large animals are free to roam.

That's not a zoo. It's still nowhere near like life in the wild for many animals. Keeping parks for animals that were rehabilitated and can't be released, or for very endangered species, fine. Capturing animals in the wild for these parks, no. Cincinnati zoo, which you are defending, does not qualify. And for some animals, like elephants, you would need huge areas - nobody can make a business from so few animals on so much land. So we'd be back to raising taxes, if you really think these parks have a value. Incorporate them into the educational system and pay for them from the same taxes that fund it.

[Thanos]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

When have I once advocated to raise taxes?

Because when government bans a private activity they almost always end up subsidizing it.

Nor did I advocate governments banning them! They should disappear, because it's the right thing to do for the animals!

Whether through attrition or lack of support, Zoos should go the way of Traveling Circuses. And for the same reason. Governments don't have to ban them, but they also don't have to let them repopulate or expand either.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

People will support wildlife sanctuaries, just as they always have. And who said zoos support them? Zoos have a tough enough time supporting themselves without supporting other charities.

All the Zoos I have ever seen have just been concentration camps for animals. There is no need to torture animals like that.

Most zoos are the best educators for wildlife preservation. Like the gorillas if no one ever sees one in person then the animals are just pictures on the net and they lose their importance.

But when you see one in person...damn.

I don't think the education factor is worth the sad existence forced on an animal that thinks and feels. Elephants, gorillas, lions - it doesn't matter. I've never seen a live gorilla, but I still know it's importance. There are other mediums to get that information. Like in that Documentary i posted earlier. They had a 'funeral' for a poached silverback - and I could see just how massive that beast was! I don't have to see it in person, and if I ever do need to, there are safaris available that can put me in smelling distance of one.

Such a safari is on my bucket list.

They continue to exist in zoos or they get exterminated wholesale (and disappear forever) in the wild. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground between the two anymore, not with habitat destruction and poaching completely out of control everywhere on this planet. Like I mentioned earlier the real wisdom will be in maintaining some kind of DNA bank so they can be cloned and brought back to life by future generations of significantly less awful humans because they literally have no chance of continuing in the wild for much longer.

When the story of the human race is finished this will be our only real legacy, the total destruction of any other life forms that had the misfortune to get in our way.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

They continue to exist in zoos or they get exterminated wholesale (and disappear forever) in the wild. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground between the two anymore, not with habitat destruction and poaching completely out of control everywhere on this planet.

There doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. There are parks that work. For example, the system of parks we have in the Western US and Canada are being slowly integrated into one contiguous habitat from Yellowstone to the Yukon, because we now understand the migration habits of the animals we are trying to protect. Walk over bridges, for example, prevent 90% more deaths from car collisions than before they were installed.

Nature preserves in the oceans off New Zealand have proven to be not only good for animals, but increase fish stocks near the reserves.

The Mountain Gorilla park in DR Congo would work - if the government had balls enough to keep mining companies and soldiers from neighbouring countries away from the park.

Preserves and parks can work, if people have the will to make them work. We don't have to have zoos. For animals critically endangered, we could provide sanctuaries.

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Preserves and parks can work, if people have the will to pay the money to make them work.

FTFY. Mostly they don't, unless you make it a Disneyland experience. And especially not in poor countries unless the rich countries chip in. Instead of raising taxes for that, I guess we can just let the animals depend on charity, just like we do with people. Works out real well.

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Those chickens aren't wild animals you know, they're farm animals.

They're only "farm animals" because we've put them on farms. Gorillas would be farm animals too, if we farmed them.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Protecting the animal in the wild is the whole point.

What is that point though? I'm just saying that, if we're truly concerned with preserving the species, the surest way to do that would be to give it an economic reason to exist. Then people would have a profit motive and, hence, an incentive would protect its environment.

BeverFever BeverFever:

Besides, farmed gorilla is bland

Free range chickens taste better too.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Preserves and parks can work, if people have the will to pay the money to make them work.

FTFY. Mostly they don't, unless you make it a Disneyland experience. And especially not in poor countries unless the rich countries chip in. Instead of raising taxes for that, I guess we can just let the animals depend on charity, just like we do with people. Works out real well.

False. Wildlife preserves, like National Parks, are very simple. Ban any economic activity in the area. No hunting, no fishing, no logging, no mining, no pollution runoff. Deploy things that verify the ban. Wildlife officers, drone overflights, or undersea buoys as the case may be.

You don't have to turn them into theme parks to make them work.

[Lemmy]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

You don't have to turn them into theme parks to make them work.

But they can also be successful as "theme parks" while remaining, primarily, for the benefit of the animal. We took the kids to the Clearwater Aquarium and it was amazing. It seemed to find the right balance between animal preserve and public exhibition, research and education.