[Newsbot]

Title: The phony crisis of the middle class
Category: Political
Posted By: OnTheIce
Date: 2014-02-27 13:15:11
Canadian

[Canadian_Mind]

I thought the concern wasn't about the amount the middle class makes, but more about the shrinking number of people who are middle class?

[saturn_656]

Or the greater sacrifice it takes to be "middle class". It isn't like it was in my parents day. 9-5 job for one parent used to be enough. Nowadays both parents are working, job security isn't what it used to be, and the hours are longer.

[peck420]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Or the greater sacrifice it takes to be "middle class". It isn't like it was in my parents day. 9-5 job for one parent used to be enough. Nowadays both parents are working, job security isn't what it used to be, and the hours are longer.

Live like your parents did, and you can live off one 9-5 income.

This is the crucial little tidbit that NEVER gets addressed.

[saturn_656]

peck420 peck420:

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Or the greater sacrifice it takes to be "middle class". It isn't like it was in my parents day. 9-5 job for one parent used to be enough. Nowadays both parents are working, job security isn't what it used to be, and the hours are longer.

Live like your parents did, and you can live off one 9-5 income.

This is the crucial little tidbit that NEVER gets addressed.

I could live off of one 9-5 income very comfortably.

Add a wife and two kids and things change. In a huge way.

[peck420]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

I could live off of one 9-5 income very comfortably.

Add a wife and two kids and things change. In a huge way.

That was not my point.

My point is that everybody wants to live a 2014 style life on a 1950's budget.

It doesn't work that way. It never has and it never will.

[bootlegga]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Or the greater sacrifice it takes to be "middle class". It isn't like it was in my parents day. 9-5 job for one parent used to be enough. Nowadays both parents are working, job security isn't what it used to be, and the hours are longer.

I think it's possible to live off one 9-5 income as long as its a professional one.

I know several friends in which the hubby is an engineer or pharmacist or lawyer and makes enough to support the family with a pretty good lifestyle - annual vacations, a car or two, a nice house, etc. Zip says he does it too. We could probably pull it off too if one of us worked private sector - however we choose quality of life over money.

It makes the biggest sense for people who have more than one child (as you do), as it saves a small fortune in child care expenses (ours were close to $20k last year). Add on lunches, travel, gas, etc and the second income probably 'costs' the average family 30k-40k a year (before taxes). That's fine if your second income is 60k or above, but below that, it's probably not worth it to have both working.

Having said that, I agree that if you're a mid-level manager somewhere, you probably don't earn enough to provide a typical middle class life for your family - and lord knows job security is a far cry from what it used to be.

[ShepherdsDog]

it`s the goddamned taxes that are crippling the middle class. Sure incomes are going up, but so is the tax burden, as extremely wealthy refuse to shoulder their tax burden, and those from below demand more of our income to fund their programs. As it is, my wife and I see less than 60% of our gross

[saturn_656]

bootlegga bootlegga:

It makes the biggest sense for people who have more than one child (as you do), as it saves a small fortune in child care expenses (ours were close to $20k last year). Add on lunches, travel, gas, etc and the second income probably 'costs' the average family 30k-40k a year (before taxes). That's fine if your second income is 60k or above, but below that, it's probably not worth it to have both working.

Having said that, I agree that if you're a mid-level manager somewhere, you probably don't earn enough to provide a typical middle class life for your family - and lord knows job security is a far cry from what it used to be.

That's me, one of the many levels of "middle management" between entry level rank and file and the top dogs.

The Mrs runs her own small business from home, so her job doesn't mean massive daycare bills. Lucky in that way. We both have been in our respective occupations long enough to see with clarity the impact a growing family has on the bottom line.

Five years ago her income was entirely bonus money. Two kids, a larger house (kids don't fit in studio apartments), and second vehicle later that income is a necessity.

Once upon a time someone would have said I should have gotten a university degree. These days they say I should have gone into the trades.

[peck420]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

...but so is the tax burden, as extremely wealthy refuse to shoulder their tax burden, and those from below demand more of our income to fund their programs...

What about those that actually spend the taxes?

I would say that our woes stem far more from the politico's then it does from the very rich or the very poor.

I would even go so far as to state that a house full of honest politico's could reduce taxes and increase services.

[OnTheIce]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

it`s the goddamned taxes that are crippling the middle class. Sure incomes are going up, but so is the tax burden, as extremely wealthy refuse to shoulder their tax burden, and those from below demand more of our income to fund their programs. As it is, my wife and I see less than 60% of our gross

The wealthy pay their share of taxes yet they take advantage of tax advantages that the middle class have as well.

They also have more knowledge of the tax system and how to avoid paying a ton of tax.

[bootlegga]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

it`s the goddamned taxes that are crippling the middle class. Sure incomes are going up, but so is the tax burden, as extremely wealthy refuse to shoulder their tax burden, and those from below demand more of our income to fund their programs. As it is, my wife and I see less than 60% of our gross

Taxes have grown, but I don't see them as onerous - it's the cost of everything else.

Our daycare costs were almost as much as our taxes last year and will likely exceed our taxes this year now that I have two of them in care. Tack on rising prices of gas, utilities and food and it just seems like it's getting harder and harder to get ahead.

Having said that, I would have liked it better if income taxes went down instead of the GST, but such is life.

[bootlegga]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

bootlegga bootlegga:

It makes the biggest sense for people who have more than one child (as you do), as it saves a small fortune in child care expenses (ours were close to $20k last year). Add on lunches, travel, gas, etc and the second income probably 'costs' the average family 30k-40k a year (before taxes). That's fine if your second income is 60k or above, but below that, it's probably not worth it to have both working.

Having said that, I agree that if you're a mid-level manager somewhere, you probably don't earn enough to provide a typical middle class life for your family - and lord knows job security is a far cry from what it used to be.

That's me, one of the many levels of "middle management" between entry level rank and file and the top dogs.

I've re-invented myself recently, so I'm not even there yet - I'm just a lowly contract worker!

saturn_656 saturn_656:

The Mrs runs her own small business from home, so her job doesn't mean massive daycare bills. Lucky in that way. We both have been in our respective occupations long enough to see with clarity the impact a growing family has on the bottom line.

Lucky!

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Five years ago her income was entirely bonus money. Two kids, a larger house (kids don't fit in studio apartments), and second vehicle later that income is a necessity.

Preaching to the choir!

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Once upon a time someone would have said I should have gotten a university degree. These days they say I should have gone into the trades.

Hindsight is 20-20, but there are times I wish I had gone to NAIT (trade/technical school) instead of university.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Taxes have grown, but I don't see them as onerous - it's the cost of everything else.

They have? Ever since Paul Martin, they've been nothing but slashed federally, as well as provincially in BC at least.

BC has way cut back personal income taxes. Instead the rob BC Hydro and ICBC for their profits, so people have to pay more for those. Keep raising the medical premiums and other fees. So what they've done is replaced progressive taxation with regressive. Nice for the high income earners, not so nice for joe average.

[saturn_656]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Taxes have grown, but I don't see them as onerous - it's the cost of everything else.

They have? Ever since Paul Martin, they've been nothing but slashed federally, as well as provincially in BC at least.

BC has way cut back personal income taxes. Instead the rob BC Hydro and ICBC for their profits, so people have to pay more for those. Keep raising the medical premiums and other fees. So what they've done is replaced progressive taxation with regressive. Nice for the high income earners, not so nice for joe average.

Lucky you. Any and all federal tax cuts have been more than wiped out by ever increasing number of taxes in Ontario. They jack 'em up so often they have to come up with little pet names for taxes that won't stir up the populace.

WTH is a "revenue tool" anyway.