[Jabberwalker]

I wasn't alive, then but there must have been a huge need for revenge...

[saturn_656]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I wasn't alive, then but there must have been a huge need for revenge...

Yeah and take it they did. My paternal line is Prussian (lived in what now is the Kaliningrad Oblast), so I learnt a few interesting things about the history from my elder relatives. The Allies (more so the Soviets) literally wiped them right off the map.

Not much remains of the Prussians.

[Jabberwalker]

I used to share a little engineering office with an authentic one ... from Berlin. He was a very "Prussian", Prussian ... an excellent engineer but not a creative one (we were designing new products).

I thought of him as my "technokraut" in my anarchic, Celtic mind.

[saturn_656]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I thought of him as my "technokraut" in my anarchic, Celtic mind.

Every now and then, I'm a "sourkraut". So is Dad.

Mom said so.

[saturn_656]

Anyway, back on topic. (Some?) Rebels are ignoring the ceasefire and are shelling Mariupol.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/06/le ... eps-needed

[DrCaleb]

$1:

Ukraine's Petro Poroshenko says Russia withdrawing forces from east
Ukraine's president said on Wednesday Russia had removed the bulk of its forces from his country, raising hopes for a peace drive now underway after five months of conflict in which more than 3,000 people have been killed.

Moscow denies sending troops into eastern Ukraine to support pro-Russian rebels battling Ukrainian forces, despite what Kiev and its Western backers say is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Moscow also denies arming the separatists.

President Petro Poroshenko told a televised cabinet meeting Ukraine would remain a sovereign, united country under the terms of a peace road map approved last Friday, but said parts of the east under rebel control would get special status.
"According to the latest information I have received from our intelligence, 70 per cent of Russian troops have been moved back across the border," he said. "This further strengthens our hope that the peace initiatives have good prospects."

However, Poroshenko said the ceasefire was not proving easy to maintain because "terrorists" were constantly trying to provoke Kyiv's forces.

Soldiers sit in an APC at a checkpoint in the port city of Mariupol, southeastern Ukraine on Sept. 5. Clashes broke out Sunday outside the main rebel-held city in eastern Ukraine, throwing the freshly forged ceasefire agreement between government troops and Russian-backed separatists into further doubt.

Ukraine's military recorded at least six violations of the ceasefire overnight but said there were no casualties. Five servicemen have been killed during the ceasefire, Ukraine says. A civilian was also killed at the weekend during shelling of the eastern port of Mariupol.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-s- ... -1.2761582

[BartSimpson]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Well hacking Germany into pieces and wrecking their martial (Prussian) culture seemed like a good idea at the time. This modern, and decidedly feeble, Germany is our creation.

The modern, and decidedly feeble and impotent West is the creation of a century of anti-Western socialists, communists, and anarchists.

But the pendulum is starting to swing the other way and maybe, just maybe, the West can rediscover the virtues of manliness in time to save our civilization from the likes of Putin and islam.

[Zipperfish]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I wasn't alive, then but there must have been a huge need for revenge...

By the Russians--definitely. It was chilling the atrocities they committed on the civilian German popualtion when they rode in. By the Europeans--not so much. The brilliance of the Marshall Plan was that it wasn't based on vengeance. As a result of that, Japan adn Germnay are propserous, peaceful allies.

The vengeance of the Treaty fo Versailles is often cited as a reason for Hitler's rise to power. It left germany in a desperate situation.

[bootlegga]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Who'd have thought that we would see a weak, emasculated Germany that is more interested in counting their gold like Nibelung dwarfs than defending their sovereignty? The "Fatherland", indeed.

Strange times that we live in.

Canada would probably be more interested in gold than getting into wars with other nations if we had lost 15 or 20 million in the 20th century like they did.

Lots of people here like to comment how 'spineless' the Europeans are, but the fact is they fought two major wars and killed off tens of millions of their own in the last century, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they aren't willing to just jump into the fray every time the US asks them to.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I wasn't alive, then but there must have been a huge need for revenge...

By the Russians--definitely. It was chilling the atrocities they committed on the civilian German popualtion when they rode in. By the Europeans--not so much. The brilliance of the Marshall Plan was that it wasn't based on vengeance. As a result of that, Japan adn Germnay are propserous, peaceful allies.

The vengeance of the Treaty fo Versailles is often cited as a reason for Hitler's rise to power. It left germany in a desperate situation.

My Estonian friend, Darja, has shared with me the deep hatred of the Russians that is shared by Estonians. You may recall the statue of a 'Soviet hero' that the Estonians moved from a town square to a Red Army cemetary...seems the Estonians call it the Statue of the Unknown Rapist. Darja says not one of her friends' families was untouched by Soviet brutality after WW2.

And, of course, RasPutin is now looking to reconquer Estonia.

I doubt that the Estonians will roll over for him.

[martin14]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I doubt that the Estonians will roll over for him.

I met a Lithuanian couple who are as equally worried.

[Winnipegger]

CBC: Ukraine ceasefire breached again in eastern city of Donetsk

We haven't seen anything from PostFactum since August 12; page 161 of this forum. I'm concerned.

[martin14]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

CBC: Ukraine ceasefire breached again in eastern city of Donetsk

We haven't seen anything from PostFactum since August 12; page 161 of this forum. I'm concerned.

Don't be.
He is fine.
Busy, but fine.

[Winnipegger]

CBC: Ukraine soldiers, civilians suffer worst violence in a week

$1:

Eastern Ukraine has suffered the worst violence in more than a week as fighting between pro-Russian rebels and government troops in the region killed at least 12 people and wounded 32, officials said Monday.

Col. Andriy Lysenko told journalists in a briefing in Kyiv on Monday that at least nine troops had been killed in a day and 27 had been wounded.

Meanwhile, the city council of Donetsk said in a statement published online that at least three civilians were killed and five wounded in overnight shelling of a residential area in the northern part of the city, where fighting has centred on the government-held airport. Throughout the day in Donetsk, regular explosions could be heard coming from the north of the city.

RIA Novosti: Russia Launches Case Against Ukraine Military for Genocide of Russian Speakers in Ukraine

CBC 18-Sep-2014: Canada, U.S. want to wean Ukraine off Russian energy

[Winnipegger]

CBC: Ukraine ceasefire breached again as 12 rebels killed in Donetsk

$1:

Despite a ceasefire declared a month ago between the Ukrainian forces and pro-Russian rebels, the biggest city in eastern Ukraine remains embroiled in fighting that includes daily artillery and rocket barrage hitting residential areas.

The fighting focusing on the airport of the rebel-held city of Donetsk shows the difficulties of enforcing a truce that has held in most other areas of eastern Ukraine since it was declared on Sept. 5.

Pro-Russian separatists lost 12 men in attacks on buildings at Donetsk airport, Ukrainian military officials said on Saturday.
...
The insurgents have since become more cautious, periodically probing the airport's defenses and firing artillery at Ukrainian positions. Rebel chiefs say it has been challenging to storm the airport because Ukrainian forces have relied on a sprawling maze of tunnels and bunkers dating from Soviet times.

During the week, the rebels made some gains around the airport, seizing a few buildings on the perimeter that allowed them to target the government forces with higher precision.