[OnTheIce]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Not bullshit. Peaceful protests have been going on for months. Shooting began same day of taping.

Obvious partisan hyperbole is obvious.

Riots and violence started on Tuesday.

Interview was filmed on Thursday.

30-40 people had already been killed by Thursday. Another 70 or so on Thursday itself.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

andyt andyt:

What I see on our side, including this forum, are attempts to deny the legitimacy of the pro-Russian pov or that they make up about half of the population. They have just as much right to see things their way and desire that outcome.

Would you say that about the Chinese position in Tibet? The tactics are quite similar; encourage emigration until the country is controlled by the immigrants.

The Crimea was Russian until Krushev made it part of Ukraine in 1954. A lot of the pro Russian side is made up of ethnic Ukrainians who are sympathetic to Russia. This is different than the situation in Tibet.

Not really. Russia has had a policy to encourage ethnic Russians to emigrate to the Ukraine for a very long time. The Russians tried to starve them to death in 1930's with the Holodomor, and have tried to overwhelm them with ethnic Russian immigrants ever since.

Not unlike China's policy encouraging emigration to Tibet after invading and murdering 1.2 million ethnic Tibetans there.

andyt andyt:

Ethnic Russians are about 17% of the population, but I've read that support for pro West and pro Russia is about evenly split - so a lot of ethnic Ukrainians seem to also favor Russia. If it was only a matter of 83% vs 17%, this clash would have never happened and Ukraine would be comfortably allied with the West by now. It's because the numbers are so evenly split that the problem arises.

It is inconvenient, isn't it? If those pesky Ukrainians would just learn that Mother Russia loves them and that all the interference in their affairs was really just a misunderstanding, everything would just be better.

[Gunnair]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Not bullshit. Peaceful protests have been going on for months. Shooting began same day of taping.

Obvious partisan hyperbole is obvious.

Riots and violence started on Tuesday.

Interview was filmed on Thursday.

30-40 people had already been killed by Thursday. Another 70 or so on Thursday itself.

Possibly. I read a report that said differently.

Edit: the report I read was referencing the sniping, not the previous clashes.

[ShepherdsDog]

easily verified

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

It is inconvenient, isn't it? If those pesky Ukrainians would just learn that Mother Russia loves them and that all the interference in their affairs was really just a misunderstanding, everything would just be better.

Huh?

By your account those pesky pro Russians should just learn that the west loves them. Looks like a draw, which is not looking good.

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The LPC has to keep a shorter leash on him. Junior hasn`t got even half of his dad`s brains. For all the crap the CPC is creating, Harper is still appearing to have an exponentially higher REST factor

Well, he is a novice. One should expect gaffs.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

It is inconvenient, isn't it? If those pesky Ukrainians would just learn that Mother Russia loves them and that all the interference in their affairs was really just a misunderstanding, everything would just be better.

Huh?

By your account those pesky pro Russians should just learn that the west loves them. Looks like a draw, which is not looking good.

Remember that, next time you accuse someone of not using the sarcasm tags.

And as I said earlier, civil war does not look good for either side. If they would all be content just being 'Ukrainian', they could have the best of both worlds; trade with Russia and trade with the EU.

[andyt]

Sorry. Taking it at face value seemed to fit with what you have posted.

Actually I've read that many on both sides are content with just being Ukrainian. Even Yanukovych moderated a push to make Russian an official language. The pro Russian side is worried about being totally in the Western orbit, the pro West side wants closer ties with us. The hard right wants nothing to do with East or West. As usual it's more complicated than maybe either side wants to make it out to be.

I would like to see Ukraine develop closer ties to the West. But it should be evolution, not revolution. I think the EU and NATO made big mistakes bringing in countries that were in no way ready to join economically or militarily. I think this came from the same desire to expand control that Russia's interference does, and is seen as a threat by Russia. I hope both sides back off a bit and let Ukraine decide it's own course, possibly cleaving to neither side.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

The hard right wants nothing to do with East or West.

The nationalists want Ukraine to be sovereign and not just to trade a Russian puppet master for a Western puppet master. I personally can appreciate their point of view. It's about time that Ukraine had a government that put Ukrainians first ahead of foreign interests.

If a major party would adopt this into their platform it would serve to bring the more radical elements into the fold.

[andyt]

Well we actually agree on something. I have no use for the hard right, bringing anti-semites into the fold should not be on, but an unaligned Ukraine doing what's best for it instead of those pulling the strings would be great. Just a dream tho.

Too bad that nationalist now seems to be a code word for right wing nut bars. Don't know if this came about from the left confounding the two terms, or guys like you that want to paper over what the far right is really all about. Probably both. I see nothing wrong with being nationalistic. Canadians do it too, maybe pretend we don't. It's only when it becomes hateful or aggressive that it's a problem.

[martin14]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Well, he is a novice. One should expect gaffs.

Obvious partisan hyperbole is obvious.


You are allowed to practise what you preach.

[Jabberwalker]

Russia is so corrupt and most of the Russian public are so poor that you wonder why anyone would want to voluntarily sign on in their "economic zone". What a millstone to have around your neck ... to have to drag Russia around.

A better idea might be to invite Russia to join the E.U. and potentially, both parties might just benefit from Russian membership over the long run. The Russians would never go for any of that, though as the real motivator for them is to prove to us all that they still have testicles.

[andyt]

They couldn't join the EU - wouldn't meet their standards, or let's hope they wouldn't. The EU became way too big too fast. If anything they should be kicking states out of the EU. Having a union between such disparate partners is just a disaster.

The reason, aside from attachment to Russia, is that Ukraine faces very hard times. The Russians offer to ease that pain, at least in the short run. The Eu will only exacerbate it, at least in the short run. And if Ukraine turns towards the EU, there goes their cheap gas. Nothing the EU can offer them, since they have to suck up to Russia for gas as well.

Russia is corrupt, but they're really not playing any different politics than any other country in their position would. The US might dress it up a little nicer, but they'd be just as hard looking out for their interests. Canada too, if it could.

[OnTheIce]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Well, he is a novice. One should expect gaffs.

Yea....he's only been in office for the last 5-6 years and had a father who was our Prime Minister.

Novice? No.

Dumb? Yes.

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The LPC has to keep a shorter leash on him. Junior hasn`t got even half of his dad`s brains. For all the crap the CPC is creating, Harper is still appearing to have an exponentially higher REST factor

Yeah, but Trudeau doesn't spend his spare time pulling the wings off flies or planning on how to get back at people. But the JT slips may be indicative of an unorganized mind. Oh well, there's always the NDP. ha ha ha