[martin14]

andyt andyt:

this just got ridiculous.

The only ridiculous thing in these 100 pages is ......... you.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

No. But the idea that because he's in Ukraine he knows all about it,

Sorry, what? If you'll find post where I am saying that I know everything about Ukraine I'll send you a present to Canada. I don't know everything about Ukraine and was never telling this.

andyt andyt:

ignoring the reporters who are actually there, who are less biased as well.

For example?

andyt andyt:

I do blame him for his circular arguments and making shit up about what I've said, just because I suggested the Ukrainian army might want to do more than stand by and let themselves be shot, their weapons taken and in general allow the insurgents to have their way.

I was telling to you many times why this happens, you just repeat this like a parrot in kindergarten.

andyt andyt:

In the mean time I've come to see why the army didn't do more - the huge support the insurgents have from the civilian population

. You are mistaken sir, this is wrong.

andyt andyt:

Of course they didn't want to massacre them. But this tells me that despite what's being pushed here, and in the media, this is not just Russia stirring the shit. This is a reaction by many people in East Ukraine to the Kiev revolution and the pull towards the West, which they did not support.

Feel the difference between revolution and destroying the country.

andyt andyt:

I doubt that these fault lines, once exposed by the Eu tempting Ukraine, can just be papered over again and forgotten. Ukraine is going to have to look a lot different when this is over, either two countries or some sort of very loose federation. Let's hope they can get there without too much blood being spilled. Despite the poo pooing here, a lot of people who study this stuff are saying it can easily turn into another Yugoslavia. And they were predicting this long before the events in Crimea.

This TV show that you were watching, is just meaning of two people. The situation in which was Yugoslavia and now is Ukraine are not the same.

I would like to write you all arguments about your meanings, and why you are not right in details. But you will ignore this all and start saying everything from up line again. Like talking to wall. You will rather allow to cut off you head than accept that you were not right. So this part of your personal character makes you look very ignorant and stupid in some situations.

[andyt]

THe Kyiv revolution is as much about destroying the country as what's happening in the East - it's trying to pull the East where it doesn't want to go. You say you're not biased, then claim there is no popular support for the pro-Russian side. This is what I mean about people being on the ground - they are reporting there is. Which means to just make the position of the Kyiv faction the right one, the other side wrong just won't fly.

You've always had this tension in the country, but it didn't come to the fore until the EU started tempting some of you WEst. Once these cracks are exposed, especially with Putin using them for his aims, it will be hard to glue Ukraine together again. Turchynov has said as much.

Now you will ignore the validity of what I've said and make funny jokeski with Martin. We've both contributed to this argument going as far as it has.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

THe Kyiv revolution is as much about destroying the country as what's happening in the East - it's trying to pull the East where it doesn't want to go. You say you're not biased, then claim there is no popular support for the pro-Russian side. This is what I mean about people being on the ground - they are reporting there is. Which means to just make the position of the Kyiv faction the right one, the other side wrong just won't fly.

So what you propose for us? Kepp eating shit and sit like monkeys without any revolutions? Do you know how much lawyer in Ukraine just after education and with 20 years of work earns? Who is pro-russian? Folks who stand in front of ak-47. I'm sure if someone will target you with a gun you will become pro-Brasil tribes. Russians use firearms, propaganda and money. They make real terror.

andyt andyt:

You've always had this tension in the country, but it didn't come to the fore until the EU started tempting some of you WEst. Once these cracks are exposed, especially with Putin using them for his aims, it will be hard to glue Ukraine together again. Turchynov has said as much.]

Now you will ignore the validity of what I've said and make funny jokeski with Martin. We've both contributed to this argument going as far as it has

I see no sence in this chapter, just play of words.

[stratos]

$1:

THe Kyiv revolution is as much about destroying the country as what's happening in the East

The Kyiv revolution was about the removal of a Gov. that was so pro Russia that the people wanted a change in leadership not the break up of the country. The current situation is that the pro-Russian east, where many in that area are by 2nd and 3rd generation Russians, wish to break away from the Ukraine and join Russia. A lot of the agitation is being done by Russian propaganda and or people in the Ukraine who are in contact with the Russian Gov.

The first was for removal of leadership the second is removal from the country itself very different goals and situations.

$1:

You've always had this tension in the country, but it didn't come to the fore until the EU started tempting some of you WEst.

Wrong the tension came to the fore front when the past leadership shifted from a pro west to a pro Russian stance and thus the Kyiv revolution that removed said leadership. So lets put the blame where it truly belongs and that is with Russia tempting the former Ukrainian Gov. into making the shift away from the West and not the EU tempting the Ukraine from Russia.

Now you will ignore the Validity of what I've said and make snide remarks and call us names. We then will take you as a joke (well for the most part we already do) and make cracks about you.

[andyt]

That's where I call bullshit, that the popular support of the people in east Ukraine is at the point of a gun. That's where I say you're biased and I'm more likely to believe the reporters who are actually there. There just aren't enough insurgents in Ukraine to do what you say. You just want to de-legitimize the people who see it differently than you. I can understand many people in Ukraine wanting closer ties with the West. Unfortunately there are also many who want closer ties with Russia. You can't just dismiss them. That's why your country will likely break up, and if you can't manage it peacefully you'll repeat what Yugoslavia did.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

That's where I call bullshit, that the popular support of the people in east Ukraine is at the point of a gun. That's where I say you're biased and I'm more likely to believe the reporters who are actually there. There just aren't enough insurgents in Ukraine to do what you say. You just want to de-legitimize the people who see it differently than you. I can understand many people in Ukraine wanting closer ties with the West. Unfortunately there are also many who want closer ties with Russia. You can't just dismiss them. That's why your country will likely break up, and if you can't manage it peacefully you'll repeat what Yugoslavia did.

You see, you ignore all arguments and switch on parrot mode again.

[Zipperfish]

stratos stratos:

The Kyiv revolution was about the removal of a Gov. that was so pro Russia that the people wanted a change in leadership not the break up of the country.

Obviously not all the people. Otherwise it wouldn't have been an issue.

[stratos]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

stratos stratos:

The Kyiv revolution was about the removal of a Gov. that was so pro Russia that the people wanted a change in leadership not the break up of the country.

Obviously not all the people. Otherwise it wouldn't have been an issue.

I stated later the cause for the Kyiv revolt was that the Gov. had done a major shift from pro west to pro east.

Also the eastern portion of the Ukraine did not rise up to back up the pro Russian leader. Even after he fled they still did not protest or rise up. The eastern portion of the Ukraine rose up only after Russia placed troupes in the Crimea and started instigating situations via propaganda and agents provocateurs aka insurgents.

To imply that the eastern portion rose up over the Kyiv revolt is a red herring. The Russians moved into the Crimea because of the successful Kyiv revolt and said it was do to Russians in the Ukraine needing protection after and only after they moved in did we see the east start to voice decent.

[Winnipegger]

Ukraine crisis: Vladimir Putin says troops pulled back from border
This article has a couple videos. The first says pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine will consider Putin's call to postpone the referendum on independence. And the article reports Putin said he supports the presidential election at the end of the month, but only if there's an end to violence. Putin says he's pulling troops back from the border with Ukraine, although NATO hasn't been able to verify that yet.


The second video is an interview with the Ukraine ambassador to Canada. I'll try to write a transcript, starting at 6:36; that is 6 minutes and 36 seconds into the interview.

$1:

Ambassador: … The NATO is doing a great job; NATO, Canada, United States, is doing a great job reassuring the allies. The only problem with us is we are not ally. We try to be ally. We have taken part in all the missions, peace keeping missions of NATO. We're paying our part. We are not ally and we can't be protected, unfortunately.
…
Evan Solomon (interviewer): One of the things that has been floated around…there has been some talk that Ukraine should be neutral. Doesn't belong to NATO, you're not part of the alliance. Doesn't belong to Russia. …
Ambassador: We don't want to be a neutral. If we are neutral we have to protect ourselves. It's not working. It's not just happening. We see on our border one block, which Russia belongs, another block which the rest of our neighbours belong. And both of them telling we want you guys to be neutral and resolve all of those things, have your own army to protect yourselves. Why wouldn't anybody else want neighbours to try to be neutral?

Well, my idea has been floated. This also means Evan is reading our stuff. Hi Evan. :wave:

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Ukraine crisis: Vladimir Putin says troops pulled back from border
This article has a couple videos. The first says pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine will consider Putin's call to postpone the referendum on independence. And the article reports Putin said he supports the presidential election at the end of the month, but only if there's an end to violence. Putin says he's pulling troops back from the border with Ukraine, although NATO hasn't been able to verify that yet.
8o

The second video is an interview with the Ukraine ambassador to Ukraine. I'll try to write a transcript, starting at 6:36; that is 6 minutes and 36 seconds into the interview.

$1:

Ambassador: … The NATO is doing a great job; NATO, Canada, United States, is doing a great job reassuring the allies. The only problem with us is we are not ally. We try to be ally. We have taken part in all the missions, peace keeping missions of NATO. We're paying our part. We are not ally and we can't be protected, unfortunately.
…
Evan Solomon (interviewer): One of the things that has been floated around…there has been some talk that Ukraine should be neutral. Doesn't belong to NATO, you're not part of the alliance. Doesn't belong to Russia. …
Ambassador: We don't want to be a neutral. If we are neutral we have to protect ourselves. It's not working. It's not just happening. We see on our border one block, which Russian belongs, another block which the rest of our neighbours belong. And both of them telling we want you guys to be neutral and resolve all of those things, have your own army to protect yourselves. Why wouldn't anybody else want neighbours to try to be neutral?

Well, my idea has been floated. This also means Evan is reading our stuff. Hi Evan. :wave:

Yepp, the same here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/07/ukraine-crisis-idUSL6N0NT58F20140507

$1:

DONETSK, Ukraine/MOSCOW, May 7 (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin called on pro-Moscow separatists in Ukraine to postpone a vote on secession just five days before it was to be held, potentially pulling Ukraine back from the brink of violent dismemberment.

It was the first sign the Kremlin leader has given that he would not endorse a referendum planned for Sunday by pro-Russian rebels seeking independence for two provinces in the east, and Russian analysts said they believed the rebels would heed Putin's call to put off the vote.

In what could be a breakthrough in the worst crisis between East and West since the Cold War, Putin also announced he was pulling Russian troops back from the Ukrainian border.

However, NATO, the Pentagon and the White House said they had not seen any signs of a Russian pull-back from the frontier, where Moscow has massed tens of thousands of troops, proclaiming the right to invade Ukraine to protect Russian speakers.

"We call on the representatives of southeastern Ukraine, the supporters of the federalisation of the country, to postpone the referendum planned for May 11," Putin said.

He said this would create conditions for dialogue between the Ukrainian authorities in Kiev and the separatists.

"We're always being told that our forces on the Ukrainian border are a concern. We have withdrawn them. Today they are not on the Ukrainian border, they are in places where they conduct their regular tasks on training grounds," Putin said.

NATO Secretary General Anders Rasmussen said during a visit to Poland: "Russia should live up to its international commitments and stop supporting separatists and scale back troops from the border, so political solutions can be found."

Putin spoke in Moscow after talks with the head of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, who said the security and rights body would soon propose a "road map" to defuse the Ukraine crisis.

PEOPLE'S ASSEMBLY

A pro-Russian separatist leader said the separatists would consider Putin's call to postpone their referendum at a meeting of their self-proclaimed People's Assembly on Thursday.

"We have the utmost respect for President Putin. If he considers that necessary, we will of course discuss it," Denis Pushilin told Reuters in Donetsk, a city of 1 million people which the rebels have proclaimed capital of an independent "People's Republic of Donetsk".

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk dismissed as "hot air" Putin's call for the referendum to be postponed.

The White House said the "illegitimate, illegal" vote should be cancelled rather than postponed.

Since a pro-Russian president was ousted in an uprising in February, Putin has overturned decades of post-Cold War diplomacy by proclaiming the right to send troops to Ukraine and seizing and annexing Crimea.

A rebellion in the east has raised the prospect that Ukraine, a country of around 45 million people the size of France, could be carved up or even descend into civil war, pitting Russian-speaking easterners against pro-European Ukrainian speakers in the West.

Residents in areas held by the pro-Moscow rebels were stunned by Putin's remarks at a time when the region seemed to be hurtling towards inevitable independence and a week of bloodshed had brought animosity towards Kiev to a fever pitch.

"Maybe Putin doesn't understand the situation? There is no way this referendum isn't happening," said Natalia Smoller, a pensioner who has been bringing food to rebels manning a roadblock in Slaviansk, a town turned into a fortified redoubt where fighters withstood a government advance this week.

Nevertheless, experts predicted the separatists would heed Putin's call to stand down for now.

"Among those confronting Ukrainian troops, a certain logic should prevail under which they understand that without the support of Russia and thereby the Russian army, they could be subjected to heavy military strikes," said Yevgeny Minchenko, a political analyst friendly to the Kremlin.

Russian share prices surged after Putin's remarks, seen as reducing the likelihood of damaging new sanctions. The MICEX index shot up 3.64 percent.

MILITARY CAMPAIGN

Ukrainian government troops have launched a military campaign to retake territory held by separatists this week. Troops briefly captured the rebel-held city hall in the eastern port of Mariupol overnight, but quickly abandoned it, leaving it back in the hands of the separatists.

In a boost for the rebels, one of their leaders, Pavel Gubarev, was released in exchange for three members of the Ukrainian security services, a spokesman for the separatists' military headquarters in Slaviansk said.

The United States and European Union, which have so far imposed limited sanctions Russian individuals and small firms, have threatened to impose much wider sanctions if Moscow took further steps to interfere in Ukraine. Sunday's planned referendum was seen as a potential trigger.

Moscow has denied Western accusations that it was orchestrating the rebellion in Ukraine's east, where Ukrainian forces have been largely unable to reassert control.

In Mariupol, where Ukrainian forces briefly recaptured the rebel-held city hall overnight, witnesses said the soldiers left after smashing furniture and office equipment. The smell of tear gas hung in the air inside the building which was largely empty in the morning, with activists in gas masks clearing debris.

Pro-Russian activists were rebuilding barricades outside the building where separatist flags flew and patriotic songs blared from loudspeakers.

The prospect that further sanctions might be imposed on Moscow has already hurt Russia's economy indirectly by scaring investors into pulling out capital and forcing the central bank to raise interest rates to protect the rouble.

A range of European companies that do business in Russia - as diverse as Italian appliance maker Indesit, Danish brewer Carlsberg, Finnish tyre maker Nokian Tyre and Swedish cosmetics firm Oriflame - announced results on Wednesday that blamed the crisis for hurting their bottom lines.

French bank Societe General wrote down the value of its Russian arm Rosbank by $730 million, blaming the economic uncertainty caused by the Ukraine crisis. (Writing by Peter Graff; Editing by Giles Elgood)

I see no logic in his actions.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

No. But the idea that because he's in Ukraine he knows all about it, ignoring the reporters who are actually there, who are less biased as well.

I do blame him for his circular arguments and making shit up about what I've said, just because I suggested the Ukrainian army might want to do more than stand by and let themselves be shot, their weapons taken and in general allow the insurgents to have their way. Egged on by Martin, this just got ridiculous.

In the mean time I've come to see why the army didn't do more - the huge support the insurgents have from the civilian population. Of course they didn't want to massacre them. But this tells me that despite what's being pushed here, and in the media, this is not just Russia stirring the shit. This is a reaction by many people in East Ukraine to the Kiev revolution and the pull towards the West, which they did not support. I doubt that these fault lines, once exposed by the Eu tempting Ukraine, can just be papered over again and forgotten. Ukraine is going to have to look a lot different when this is over, either two countries or some sort of very loose federation. Let's hope they can get there without too much blood being spilled. Despite the poo pooing here, a lot of people who study this stuff are saying it can easily turn into another Yugoslavia. And they were predicting this long before the events in Crimea.

The same can be stated about your points. Where do you get your information upon which to formulate an opinion. With PF we get his view on the ground.

You argue for the sake of arguing. And you are wrong on so much ref the Ukraine.

[Public_Domain]

A 21 year old woman carrying sandwiches for Pro-Russian militants was shot and killed, it is apparently causing an emotional crisis in the area.

[DrCaleb]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

A 21 year old woman carrying sandwiches for Pro-Russian militants was shot and killed, it is apparently causing an emotional crisis in the area.

The "Arab Spring" started when a street vendor was killed by police.

I've been waiting for such an event to set things off.

[BartSimpson]

LiveLeak video of a gunfight in Ukraine yesterday:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e06_1399345878

Catch the guy at 3:13 with the Dragunov...