[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

It's not a great joke, but it has a lot of truth in it. We do fear Russian aggression, and Russia losing hockey is not going to make Putin very happy - because he can't reflect the glory on himself, as he wanted. Putin in in power by his reputation as a tough guy who stands up for Russia. There will be a lot of pressure on him to act tough, not just talk. Guys like him look invincible one minute, but can easily topple if they lose their rep. Russia having won gold in hockey might have mollified the Russians a bit. Stranger things have happened where small events play a big role in much larger happenings.

I don't see anything JT said that demeans the lives lost or the protests as a whole.

Taped on the day when the first info starting coming in. Doubt he knew much of what was going down when he made the comment.

Flippant and foolish, but a tempest in a teapot.

[andyt]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Far right Svoboda is the second smallest party in the parliament, just four seats ahead of the far left Communist Party (which was aligned with Yanukovich BTW). Neither is any position to lead or make policy and can only influence through participation in a coalition.

Svoboda's followers may have been the most violent of the protestors, but I wouldn't say they were anywhere near a majority of them and the entire opposition shouldn't be tarred with the same brush. The opposition is a diverse bunch and there were many different reasons for opposing Yanukovich, not all of them universally shared I'm sure.

That goes without saying. I've heard nobody claim that all the protesters, or even the majority, are far rightists. Maybe the Russians have, but I don't get their media.

But the reason the Orange revolution failed is because of conflicts in the anti-Russian factions - they get to infighting, while the pro-Russian side seem to be pulling in the same direction.

What I see on our side, including this forum, are attempts to deny the legitimacy of the pro-Russian pov or that they make up about half of the population. They have just as much right to see things their way and desire that outcome.

While things are calm right now, I think there are some troubling days ahead for Ukraine. I hope they can find their way thru it without more bloodshed, or demagogues of either side coming to power. Tymoshenko didn't turn out to be all that either, and there doesn't seem to be a clear figure or party on the anti-Russian side to step forward.

I use the term anti-Russian because I read that the far right is as much against the EU as it is against Russia. Guess they figure they can create their own little national socialist paradise right there.

[N_Fiddledog]

$1:

Over the past few months, thousands have opposed the Ukrainian government in large demonstrations, including one famous American actress.

Hayden Panettiere, known for her role on ABC’s “Nashville,” has taken on a new role—as political activist.

Panettiere joined forces with her fiancé, Ukrainian heavyweight boxing champion Wladimir Klitschko, in promoting freedom and democracy in the Ukraine, amid political unrest in the country.

Klitschko’s brother, Vitali, is the head of the opposition party leading the recent protests. Vitali is calling on Ukranian President Viktor Yanukovich to resign because he's responsible for "murder and terror against peaceful civilians," NBC News reported.

In December, Panettiere shared photos of herself and Wladimir protesting on the “#frontlines” in Kiev, Ukraine. "Your fight is not falling on deaf ears," Panettiere told an assembled crowd, according to People Magazine. "The world will hear you. And as an American I want you to know that I stand by you, I support your fight, and I will support it until the country of Ukraine in its entirety reflects the beauty, the true beauty of Ukrainian people," the "Nashville" star said as Klitschko translated. "Keep fighting. I love you all."

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/entertai ... le=o&nms=y

[N_Fiddledog]

andyt andyt:

What I see on our side, including this forum, are attempts to deny the legitimacy of the pro-Russian pov or that they make up about half of the population. They have just as much right to see things their way and desire that outcome.

Well actually...according to Wikipedia...

$1:

In the 2001 Ukrainian census, 8,334,100 identified as ethnic Russians (17.3% of the total population), this is the combined figure for persons originating from outside of Ukraine and the autochthonous population declaring Russian ethnicity.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_ ... mographics

So they had 17.3% of the vote 13 years ago. At that time, "The average age of Russians in Ukraine was 41.9 years, so I don't know might be less today. Apparently they like to live around the administrative regions of the country. That's interesting.

[llama66]

I really hope the fighting in Kiyv ends soon and the Ukrainian people get the freedom they so richly deserve.

[martin14]

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

It's not a great joke, but it has a lot of truth in it. We do fear Russian aggression, and Russia losing hockey is not going to make Putin very happy - because he can't reflect the glory on himself, as he wanted. Putin in in power by his reputation as a tough guy who stands up for Russia. There will be a lot of pressure on him to act tough, not just talk. Guys like him look invincible one minute, but can easily topple if they lose their rep. Russia having won gold in hockey might have mollified the Russians a bit. Stranger things have happened where small events play a big role in much larger happenings.

I don't see anything JT said that demeans the lives lost or the protests as a whole.

Taped on the day when the first info starting coming in. Doubt he knew much of what was going down when he made the comment.

Flippant and foolish, but a tempest in a teapot.

Bullshit.

These protests have been going on for months.

JT was probably too busy getting his hair done to bother keeping up with things.

[N_Fiddledog]

Speaking of the bands of Nazis wandering about though, there's a good video here of a couple of them ordering cops around.



Translation of the first part of the conversation:
###
Nazi vigilant to cop: "Your ID!"
Scared cop quietly: "Good afternoon. Who are you Sir? Why should I give you my ID?"
Nazi vigilant: "I have the authority of the supreme parliament! I'm also armed, so do not let me use it as the last tool!"
Cop quietly: "I'm armed also."
Nazi vigilant yelling: "I'm armed, and you are armed. Who do you think will be killed?! This is the last warning, give me your ID!"
...

I think the biggest problem with these guys is if the good guys can't get things in order quick Vlad can use the disruptions of these "Banderas" or whatever their called as an excuse to roll the tanks in to "maintain order".

[martin14]

Every employee of the State, from Minister down to cop on the beat, can now be suspected of colluding with Yanukovich.

This is a real revolution.

[Public_Domain]

Ah, so this is what you folks want to see in a revolution.

I must say, I'm surprised.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

What I see on our side, including this forum, are attempts to deny the legitimacy of the pro-Russian pov or that they make up about half of the population. They have just as much right to see things their way and desire that outcome.

Would you say that about the Chinese position in Tibet? The tactics are quite similar; encourage emigration until the country is controlled by the immigrants.

[Gunnair]

martin14 martin14:

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

It's not a great joke, but it has a lot of truth in it. We do fear Russian aggression, and Russia losing hockey is not going to make Putin very happy - because he can't reflect the glory on himself, as he wanted. Putin in in power by his reputation as a tough guy who stands up for Russia. There will be a lot of pressure on him to act tough, not just talk. Guys like him look invincible one minute, but can easily topple if they lose their rep. Russia having won gold in hockey might have mollified the Russians a bit. Stranger things have happened where small events play a big role in much larger happenings.

I don't see anything JT said that demeans the lives lost or the protests as a whole.

Taped on the day when the first info starting coming in. Doubt he knew much of what was going down when he made the comment.

Flippant and foolish, but a tempest in a teapot.

Bullshit.

These protests have been going on for months.

JT was probably too busy getting his hair done to bother keeping up with things.

Not bullshit. Peaceful protests have been going on for months. Shooting began same day of taping.

Obvious partisan hyperbole is obvious.

[ShepherdsDog]

interesting that on CBC this morning, a commentator said Trudeau`s preponderance to insert his foot into his mouth, is why they didn`t have a news conference after the Lib Convention.

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

interesting that on CBC this morning, a commentator said Trudeau`s preponderance to insert his foot into his mouth, is why they didn`t have a news conference after the Lib Convention.

Could be. Stand by for mea culpa and a back room finger waving at his wrangler.

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

andyt andyt:

What I see on our side, including this forum, are attempts to deny the legitimacy of the pro-Russian pov or that they make up about half of the population. They have just as much right to see things their way and desire that outcome.

Would you say that about the Chinese position in Tibet? The tactics are quite similar; encourage emigration until the country is controlled by the immigrants.

The Crimea was Russian until Krushev made it part of Ukraine in 1954. A lot of the pro Russian side is made up of ethnic Ukrainians who are sympathetic to Russia. This is different than the situation in Tibet.

Ethnic Russians are about 17% of the population, but I've read that support for pro West and pro Russia is about evenly split - so a lot of ethnic Ukrainians seem to also favor Russia. If it was only a matter of 83% vs 17%, this clash would have never happened and Ukraine would be comfortably allied with the West by now. It's because the numbers are so evenly split that the problem arises.

[ShepherdsDog]

The LPC has to keep a shorter leash on him. Junior hasn`t got even half of his dad`s brains. For all the crap the CPC is creating, Harper is still appearing to have an exponentially higher REST factor