[Goober911]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eur ... ml?hpid=z3

Earlier, in the Luhansk region, about 20 armed militants destroyed a military radar station, according to the Web site of southern Ukraine’s prosecutor general. The report said the militants outnumbered Ukrainian soldiers at the installation and slipped away after the 4 a.m. attack. There was no mention of casualties. In perhaps another sign of the confusion and suspicions of mixed loyalties in parts of Ukraine, the prosecutor said there would be an investigation of the soldiers’ conduct.

Armed separatists also seized control of the main government building in the town of Debaltseve, a regional railway hub with a population of 26,000 and two large thermal power plants about 45 miles northeast of Donetsk, according to local media reports.

In Odessa, social media appeared to be fanning tensions between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian activists days after 46 people died in violent clashes in the city. The Kyiv Post said late Monday that the rival groups have been using VKontakte — the Russian counterpart of Facebook — to rally supporters for demonstrations and counterdemonstrations and to single out individuals for reprisals.

Acting interior minister Arsen Avakov, Ukraine’s top security official, said Tuesday that an estimated 30 pro-Russian militants were killed and “dozens” were injured in fighting a day earlier around the eastern city of Slovyansk. Four members of Ukraine’s security forces were killed and about 20 were wounded as the interim government attempted to take control of the city.

[andyt]

$1:

NATO's top military commander in Europe said on Monday he no longer thought regular Russian troops would enter eastern Ukraine, predicting Moscow could achieve its goals through the unconventional forces stirring up trouble there.

Breedlove said that until a week ago, he thought the most likely military response from Russia would be to send in troops to southern Ukraine and secure a land bridge to the peninsula of Crimea — which voted in March to join Russia — before possibly pushing on toward the Black Sea port of Odesa and then farther west toward Moldova.

"Today I would tell you I don't think that's the most likely course of action ... I think now that Putin may be able to accomplish his objectives in eastern Ukraine and never go across the border with his forces," he said.

"Now I think probably the most likely course of action is that he will continue doing what he's doing — discrediting the government, creating unrest, trying to set the stage for a separatist movement," and that would make it easier to cement Moscow's military and economic hold on eastern Ukraine, Breedlove added.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/russia- ... -1.2632522

[andyt]

I think the West and pro-Western Ukrainians have to take some responsibility here. The EU whispered sweet nothing in Kyiv's ear, pulling them Westward. But, turns out there's a lot of people in Eastern Ukraine that didn't want to go that way. Putin saw his chance and acted, but even Putin did nothing, it seems there would have been a lot of unhappy people in the East wanting to replicate the Kiev revolution, but in the other direction. The interim govt passing anti-Russian laws didn't help either.

I guess the West will be stuck with West Ukraine when this is all over. What we're going to do with it is beyond me.

What Breedlove says is happening could not happen without strong support from the people, the few Russian insurgents just couldn't accomplish it by themselves. Can't just say how wonderful pro-Western revolution is, but deny it to people who see things differently.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

I think the West and pro-Western Ukrainians have to take some responsibility here. The EU whispered sweet nothing in Kyiv's ear, pulling them Westward. But, turns out there's a lot of people in Eastern Ukraine that didn't want to go that way. Putin saw his chance and acted, but even Putin did nothing, it seems there would have been a lot of unhappy people in the East wanting to replicate the Kiev revolution, but in the other direction. The interim govt passing anti-Russian laws didn't help either.

I guess the West will be stuck with West Ukraine when this is all over. What we're going to do with it is beyond me.

What Breedlove says is happening could not happen without strong support from the people, the few Russian insurgents just couldn't accomplish it by themselves. Can't just say how wonderful pro-Western revolution is, but deny it to people who see things differently.

You should read the article, where does he sate that??

[andyt]

Right in the headline - Russia will achieve its goals by unconventional forces causing stirring trouble. What's wrong with you?

[jj2424]

jj2424 jj2424:

andyt andyt:

And the rest of the 125,000 all support the west, do they?

It was the bullshit that the insurgents were all just Russian agents, as PF would have it that made me say Ukraine needs to stand up - what you call advocating violence (Why are you not chastising htos govt troops for practicing violence?)

There is a lot of popular support for Russia in east Ukraine. The supporters have been much more engaged than those that support the west. This has to be recognized and taken into account. Ukraine isn't going back to what it once was.

@PF - I guess you did. But in that case, don't the people of the east have the same right of rebellion as those in Kiev?

Last post of the morning and you'll be back in 20 minutes, when your 6 hour shift at the gas bar is over. No wi-fi at that place?

Damn it I was off by one minute 3:44 ! Andy must of had a tail wind when he was going home today.

[andyt]

It's OK if you have a thing for me, jj. But try to keep it under control. OK?

[andyt]

Interesting discussion on CBC. The smartypants there made the point Ukraine could easily devolve into a Yugoslavia type situation, that Putin doesn't have as much control over the Ukrainian irregulars that we think he does, but that he has to try to rein them in. But also that the West needs to push Kiev to rein in it's irregulars.

But the last point made was the best. That Europe, 70 yrs after D day is still relying on the US to protect it. Europe used to be tough. Now it's too fat and too comfortable. Time for it to step up.

[Jabberwalker]

Europe, 70 yrs after D day is still relying on the US to protect it. Europe used to be tough. Now it's too fat and too comfortable. Time for it to step up.

You bet ... and they're not doing it, either.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Interesting discussion on CBC. The smartypants there made the point Ukraine could easily devolve into a Yugoslavia type situation, that Putin doesn't have as much control over the Ukrainian irregulars that we think he does, but that he has to try to rein them in. But also that the West needs to push Kiev to rein in it's irregulars.

But the last point made was the best. That Europe, 70 yrs after D day is still relying on the US to protect it. Europe used to be tough. Now it's too fat and too comfortable. Time for it to step up.

I don't think we're too far away. I think Ukraine is letting this get too far out of hands it will need to allow secession or it will need a heavy hand and western support to keep Putin at bay.

[andyt]

I think the genie is out of the bottle. It's not just Putin stirring shit, there are a lot of pro-Russian Ukrainians - more than people want to believe. If the EU had successfully pulled Ukraine into it's orbit, if Putin had done nothing, these people would have been very unhappy and probably staged a Kyiv style revolution of their own. Especially after Kyiv passed anti-Russian laws.

One guy made the point that Poland is a big player here - they were driving the push of the EU to pull Ukraine west. Fucking Poland, eh, always causing problems.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

I think the genie is out of the bottle. It's not just Putin stirring shit, there are a lot of pro-Russian Ukrainians - more than people want to believe. If the EU had successfully pulled Ukraine into it's orbit, if Putin had done nothing, these people would have been very unhappy and probably staged a Kyiv style revolution of their own. Especially after Kyiv passed anti-Russian laws.

One guy made the point that Poland is a big player here - they were driving the push of the EU to pull Ukraine west. Fucking Poland, eh, always causing problems.

Can you open your rep points?

[martin14]

PostFactum PostFactum:

andyt andyt:

I think the genie is out of the bottle. It's not just Putin stirring shit, there are a lot of pro-Russian Ukrainians - more than people want to believe. If the EU had successfully pulled Ukraine into it's orbit, if Putin had done nothing, these people would have been very unhappy and probably staged a Kyiv style revolution of their own. Especially after Kyiv passed anti-Russian laws.

One guy made the point that Poland is a big player here - they were driving the push of the EU to pull Ukraine west. Fucking Poland, eh, always causing problems.

Can you open your rep points?

He doesn't dare.......

[PostFactum]

Yesterday SBU got conversation. Thanks to god, good people made it in English.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Right in the headline - Russia will achieve its goals by unconventional forces causing stirring trouble. What's wrong with you?

Headline is misleading as per normal. Meant to grab attention. Read the article. He also stated Russia would invade did he not??