[martin14]

BRAH BRAH:

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

BRAH BRAH:

Not war but together as one voice but they can't even do that, so is NATO even relevant anymore?

The more members, the greater chance of that happening. But what exactly are you talking about?

If NATO can stand together sending Putin the message the West will not stand for this.

But they will, NATO will not step up for Ukraine, other than words and some sanctions.

This is clear.


It is also clear countries are putting troops specifically into the Baltic countries
to tell Putin they will stand up for them.

[Goober911]

BRAH BRAH:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Clearly, NATO is still relevant and it is being called upon to perform it's original, prime function again for the first time in a quarter century ... containing Russian expansion.

Let's hope because we're in another Cold War.

We have been for years, Bush & Obama were blowing smoke up their respective asses and anyone who wished to believe it.
After Georgia, this was as plain as the nose on you face.
Forward deployment of Military assets should have been done.

[BRAH]

Goober911 Goober911:

Then NATO must make it clear, Ukraine borders are inviolate.
NATO guarantees up to and including all Military action will be used to guarantee these borders.
No NATO troops / assets will deploy to the Ukraine.
Any invasion of Ukraine will be declared an Act of War against NATO countries.
Ukraine is defined as essential to NATO security.
Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

Immediate deployment of UN assets - OSCE to oversee the return of Govt facilities to the present Ukraine Govt. Force if required will be used.
Ensure a fair election.

Begin forward deployment of assets to the front line states.
Begin the plans that were in effect during the Cold War, mobilizing and deploying military assets from the States & Canada.

And lastly - It ain't gonna happen.

When the Cold War ended everyone gave up certain installations, military assets etc because they were seen as not required anymore so does NATO still have the military capability to contain Russia?

[Goober911]

BRAH BRAH:

Goober911 Goober911:

Then NATO must make it clear, Ukraine borders are inviolate.
NATO guarantees up to and including all Military action will be used to guarantee these borders.
No NATO troops / assets will deploy to the Ukraine.
Any invasion of Ukraine will be declared an Act of War against NATO countries.
Ukraine is defined as essential to NATO security.
Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

Immediate deployment of UN assets - OSCE to oversee the return of Govt facilities to the present Ukraine Govt. Force if required will be used.
Ensure a fair election.

Begin forward deployment of assets to the front line states.
Begin the plans that were in effect during the Cold War, mobilizing and deploying military assets from the States & Canada.

And lastly - It ain't gonna happen.

When the Cold War ended everyone gave up certain installations, military assets etc because they were seen as not required anymore so does NATO still have the military capability to contain Russia?

NATO has more than enough capability to kick their respective asses all the way to and past Moscow.
NATO did not place Military assets forwards as they did not want to tick off the Russians.
We have seen Vlad with his exercises in the Baltic,Poland etc. After Georgia they should have woken up.
Yes, in 08 there was a recession, but it could have been done over time.
Next the EU does not carry their own freight, the US does. And I include Canada in not paying their way.
Harper can kiss my ass. Mind you the other 2 are lacking as well.
Hairdo and the Mustache.

[martin14]

BRAH BRAH:

When the Cold War ended everyone gave up certain installations, military assets etc because they were seen as not required anymore so does NATO still have the military capability to contain Russia?

No.


I don't think we ever did, and I have spoken to people on both sides of the Curtain,
including ex-military on both sides.

The only thing that kept the Russians back were the nukes.

Then and now.

[BRAH]

martin14 martin14:

But they will, NATO will not step up for Ukraine, other than words and some sanctions.

This is clear.


It is also clear countries are putting troops specifically into the Baltic countries
to tell Putin they will stand up for them.

This is indeed a scary time for the neighbouring countries on Ukraine's borders who are having flash backs to the days when the USSR marched it's way through every country. As for NATO, if they can't step up for the Ukraine then what's required for them to take action bringing Ukraine into NATO? Putin could see that as a threat to Russia escalating this situation even further.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

@PostFactum: In 2001 I translated an article from a Russian journal about a mission plan to send humans to Mars. The plan was proposed by the corporation RSC Energia, not the Russian Space Agency. I don't speak Russian. To translate, I used several websites and compared results. Mostly, I used one Russian and one American. None were perfect, but after merging their results I got a better translation. Acronyms could not be translated; I eventualy met an aerospace engineer, an immigrant to Canada from Ukraine who got his degree in Moscow. He was able to tell me what the acronyms ment. But the point is to use more than one translation website. The Russian website http://www.transalte.ru does not support Ukrainian. But translate.bing.com does a good job with a web page. Bing is owned by Microsoft; obviously both Google and Bing are American. The Bing version of your articles...

Thank you, I've bookmarked page.

[martin14]

BRAH BRAH:

martin14 martin14:

But they will, NATO will not step up for Ukraine, other than words and some sanctions.

This is clear.


It is also clear countries are putting troops specifically into the Baltic countries
to tell Putin they will stand up for them.

This is indeed a scary time for the neighbouring countries on Ukraine's borders who are having flash backs to the days when the USSR marched it's way through every country. As for NATO, if they can't step up for the Ukraine then what's required for them to take action bringing Ukraine into NATO? Putin could see that as a threat to Russia escalating this situation even further.

Nothing is required.
Ukraine joining NATO is a seriously stupid idea, and should not be done.

Whoever thought it up should be flogged with a history book, then shot.

[PostFactum]

Odesa police station is free.

$1:

Police cleared Odessa regional militia from separatists who seized it the night before.

' Currently the no outsiders, while the management is about hundreds of pro-Russian protesters will ',-said in a statement.

Earlier it was reported that the police dismissed the detained participants of the unrest on May 2 under the pressure of the crowd.

Recall that today the Odessa police headed by Ivan Katerinchuk and its governing the composition of vìdstoronili from the performance of duties.

http://hromadske.tv/society/odeske-oblupravlinnya-mvs-zvilneno-vid-separatisti/

[Goober911]

martin14 martin14:

BRAH BRAH:

When the Cold War ended everyone gave up certain installations, military assets etc because they were seen as not required anymore so does NATO still have the military capability to contain Russia?

No.


I don't think we ever did, and I have spoken to people on both sides of the Curtain,
including ex-military on both sides.

The only thing that kept the Russians back were the nukes.

Then and now.

When NATO deployed the Cruise Missile, that took the Russians missiles off the table. Along with an increase in troops.
The USSR had deployed newer missiles that were considered if I recall correctly, could be used as a first strike.

NATO was behind the 8 ball when the USSR deployed these.

http://www.csmonitor.com/1981/1202/120244.html

http://www.nato.int/history/nato-history.html

The 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Soviet deployment of SS-20 Saber ballistic missiles in Europe led to the suspension of détente. To counter the Soviet deployment, Allies made the “dual track” decision to deploy nuclear-capable Pershing II and ground-launched cruise missiles in Western Europe while continuing negotiations with the Soviets. The deployment was not scheduled to begin until 1983. In the meantime, the Allies hoped to achieve an arms control agreement that would eliminate the need for the weapons.

Lacking the hoped-for agreement with the Soviets, NATO members suffered internal discord when deployment began in 1983. Following the ascent of Mikhail Gorbachev as Soviet Premier in 1985, the United States and the Soviet Union signed the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty in 1987, eliminating all nuclear and ground-launched ballistic and cruise missiles with intermediate ranges. This is now regarded as an initial indication that the Cold War was coming to an end. The 1980s also saw the accession of NATO’s first new member since 1955. In 1982, a newly democratic Spain joined the transatlantic Alliance.

[PostFactum]

martin14 martin14:

Nothing is required.
Ukraine joining NATO is a seriously stupid idea, and should not be done.

Whoever thought it up should be flogged with a history book, then shot.

Problem is that we have old folks who were living during Soviet Union, it's propaganda made very strict imagination about NATO in their head. Ukraine needs good "NATO commercial" and old folks out of business. After 10 years in EU we will be ready for NATO, not earlier. History is very temporary factor.

[andyt]

Nowhere near ready for EU either. Especially now.

[Goober911]

martin14 martin14:

BRAH BRAH:

martin14 martin14:

But they will, NATO will not step up for Ukraine, other than words and some sanctions.

This is clear.


It is also clear countries are putting troops specifically into the Baltic countries
to tell Putin they will stand up for them.

This is indeed a scary time for the neighbouring countries on Ukraine's borders who are having flash backs to the days when the USSR marched it's way through every country. As for NATO, if they can't step up for the Ukraine then what's required for them to take action bringing Ukraine into NATO? Putin could see that as a threat to Russia escalating this situation even further.

Nothing is required.
Ukraine joining NATO is a seriously stupid idea, and should not be done.

Whoever thought it up should be flogged with a history book, then shot.

But this would be possible. Both accepting that Ukraine is essential to Russian and Western security.
Posted earlier.

Then NATO must make it clear, Ukraine borders are inviolate.
NATO guarantees up to and including all Military action will be used to guarantee these borders.
No NATO troops / assets will deploy to the Ukraine.
Any invasion of Ukraine will be declared an Act of War against NATO countries.
Ukraine is defined as essential to NATO security.
Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

Immediate deployment of UN assets - OSCE to oversee the return of Govt facilities to the present Ukraine Govt. Force if required will be used.
Ensure a fair election.

Begin forward deployment of assets to the front line states.
Begin the plans that were in effect during the Cold War, mobilizing and deploying military assets from the States & Canada.

And lastly - It ain't gonna happen.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

Nowhere near ready for EU either. Especially now.

If philosophical concept about reincarnation works - in your next life you will be citizen of Ukraine. Karma.

[PostFactum]

Goober911 Goober911:

But this would be possible. Both accepting that Ukraine is essential to Russian and Western security.
Posted earlier.

Then NATO must make it clear, Ukraine borders are inviolate.
NATO guarantees up to and including all Military action will be used to guarantee these borders.
No NATO troops / assets will deploy to the Ukraine.
Any invasion of Ukraine will be declared an Act of War against NATO countries.
Ukraine is defined as essential to NATO security.
Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

Immediate deployment of UN assets - OSCE to oversee the return of Govt facilities to the present Ukraine Govt. Force if required will be used.
Ensure a fair election.

Begin forward deployment of assets to the front line states.
Begin the plans that were in effect during the Cold War, mobilizing and deploying military assets from the States & Canada.

And lastly - It ain't gonna happen.

Your plan cost a lot of money, noone would like them to pay for Ukraine.