[ShepherdsDog]

Yup....long range rail mounted artillery fired at coordinates on a map 20+ miles away was just so much more personal and honourable. The guy operating the drone actually sees the people/target he's eliminating. Precision strikes allow the military to avoid schools and hospitals that were usually levelled with the carpet bombing of the past, minimizing collateral damage.

[jeff744]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Predator drones are flown by human pilots and the trigger is pulled by that human pilot.

What is the difference between a Hellfire shot from a Predator and a Hellfire shot from an A10? Both are remotely fired and guided to their target by a human.

Your logic is flawed.

The A-10 has a pilot in the aircraft, his life is at risk when he goes to strike a target. The guy a thousand miles away has no risks to his life, all he has is a risk of PTSD. If you are going to take a life yours should be on the line too.

[jeff744]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Yup....long range rail mounted artillery fired at coordinates on a map 20+ miles away was just so much more personal and honourable. The guy operating the drone actually sees the people/target he's eliminating. Precision strikes allow the military to avoid schools and hospitals that were usually levelled with the carpet bombing of the past, minimizing collateral damage.

The people ensuring the accuracy of the strikes do. Since when did a machine have to ensure that the strike was precise? I thought air strikes by planes with people in them were just as accurate, the only difference is that there is a man putting his own life on the line to make the strike.

[Zipperfish]

I don't see why drones need a human to pull the trigger. Right now, maybe. But in a few years, the drones will be much more capable than a human to undertake the required action. With the ability to collect and process information several timmes faster than someone sitting in a bunker 3000 miles away, automated drones will likely drop civilan casualities even further.

Not only that, the comlink between the drone is a weak point from a cybersecurity standpoint.

Drones have other uses besides deadly force. Apparently California is thinking of using them to tag speeders.

[ShepherdsDog]

@ Jeff

You've been reading too much sci fi and seem a little confused. These machines all have human s controlling them...they are not self aware and calling the shots.

Drones have alot of applications outside the military from environment to natural resources, to law enforcement. We're a long way from AI and the drones require human operators to monitor them.

[jeff744]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I don't see why drones need a human to pull the trigger. Right now, maybe. But in a few years, the drones will be much more capable than a human to undertake the required action. With the ability to collect and process information several timmes faster than someone sitting in a bunker 3000 miles away, automated drones will likely drop civilan casualities even further.

Not only that, the comlink between the drone is a weak point from a cybersecurity standpoint.

Drones have other uses besides deadly force. Apparently California is thinking of using them to tag speeders.

That's not the problem, it's the fact that you are launching precision strikes with a pilot a thousand miles away who is completely safe from all harm. I have absolutely no problem with unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, my issue is when you strap a missile to that same aircraft and can now kill a person from the safety of your own home. The main reason is because it is a moral slippery slope as it is a small step to remove the human element entirely so that there is no longer a ping and the human reaction factor when actually engaged. While automation would be excellent if people could use it responsibly all it does is make targets that previously weren't worth the risk now worth it because all you factor in is the monetary risk of the strike.

[jeff744]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

You've been reading too much sci fi and seem a little confused. These machines all have human s controlling them...they are not self aware and calling the shots.

You got confused I think. I am stating that if you are going to take a life it should never be done from the safety of a bunker a thousand miles away. If you are going to take a life then yours should be on the line as well. I am very well aware they are not self aware and hopefully never will be but by allowing one level of automation it becomes easy to allow more and more automation until suddenly the only human interaction is maintaining and launching it.

[ShepherdsDog]

What about the Confederate soldiers who were the first to use rifled barrels against Union soldiers still using smooth bores? The Confederates were picking them off a mile away with no risk to themselves. History is replete with one side in a conflict having technological advantages over the other

[jeff744]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

What about the Confederate soldiers who were the first to use rifled barrels against Union soldiers still using smooth bores? The Confederates were picking them off a mile away with no risk to themselves. History is replete with one side in a conflict having technological advantages over the other

They were still on a battlefield and often took horrendous losses while remaining in range of artillery fire.

[DanSC]

It's not a lack of honour that's a problem; war has never, ever been honourable.

It's the fact that engaging in war with absolutely no risk makes the USA do things it would never dream of doing otherwise, because why not? Who cares if the mission has little to no value, it's not like it costs us anything.

[martin14]

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.
George S. Patton




Truer words never spoken.

[ShepherdsDog]

that's part of the problem...Jeff seems to think war was an activity conducted by gentlemen.

[EyeBrock]

jeff744 jeff744:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Predator drones are flown by human pilots and the trigger is pulled by that human pilot.

What is the difference between a Hellfire shot from a Predator and a Hellfire shot from an A10? Both are remotely fired and guided to their target by a human.

Your logic is flawed.

The A-10 has a pilot in the aircraft, his life is at risk when he goes to strike a target. The guy a thousand miles away has no risks to his life, all he has is a risk of PTSD. If you are going to take a life yours should be on the line too.

This argument makes no sense.

[Unsound]

Not to be too cynical here, but I think one of the main problems with Jeffs argument is he seems to think that the men who decide whether to go to war care much about human life. I can almost gaurantee you, most of them would rather lose a couple dozen soldiers than lose the millions of dollars that goo into building a drone.

If they worry about body counts it's only as a political calculation.

[jeff744]

Unsound Unsound:

Not to be too cynical here, but I think one of the main problems with Jeffs argument is he seems to think that the men who decide whether to go to war care much about human life. I can almost gaurantee you, most of them would rather lose a couple dozen soldiers than lose the millions of dollars that goo into building a drone.

If they worry about body counts it's only as a political calculation.

When manning an aircraft you have both the cost of the aircraft and the cost of the life. A politician may hate the dollar sign but the voter hates the cost of life, they can be mad about the cost in cash but that has nowhere near the power of the loss of life.