[Akhenaten]

$1:

Actually, if you're female and walked around with no top on, you'd likely be forcibly arrested.

And he abandons the point for something entirely different. Your point was bras and burkas were the same. They are not. One is forced to wear a burka, women are not forced to wear bras. It was an inaccurate analogy and the poper thing to do is to admit that and move on with another point, not ignore the counter point and get even sillier.

That we have public nudity laws in this country is of no connection whatsoever. Deciding not to wear a bra does not equal public nudity by a long shot.

$1:

the same way Afghan women have been conditioned.

Nope. Once again you must be educated. I should be charging you for this. The Afghan women have not been conditioned to wear a burka or hajib. They have the choice. Some do. Some don't. There is no "conditioning like Western women are to wear a bra". Each of them have the choice and deciding to not wear a bra is not the same as public nudity. That's YOUR leap of logic and without it you wouldn't be able to make a point at all.

$1:

Clearly in your smug moral superiority, this has eluded you.

<YAWN> Starts crying and insulting the moment he sees his anaolgy is incorrect. Typical. It's your smug moral superiority zipper not mine. It's so smug it can't deal with reality. When you come back down to Earth maybe we can continue.

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

And he abandons the point for something entirely different. Your point was bras and burkas were the same. They are not. One is forced to wear a burka, women are not forced to wear bras. It was an inaccurate analogy and the poper thing to do is to admit that and move on with another point, not ignore the counter point and get even sillier.

Sure, my analogy should have been more accurate. I should have specifid "breast covering" for "bra." The point still stands though.

$1:

That we have public nudity laws in this country is of no connection whatsoever.

Clearly you are completely imprisoned by your particular moral mindset, and the assumed supremacy of that moral mindset, that you are incapable of seeing beyond it. That makes you a nice malleable pawn for the propagandists, but a lousy general.

Generals should make decisions based on concrete interests, not facile morality. Generals should understand their enemy, not just write them off as morally inferior alien life forms.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

I should have specifid "breast covering" for "bra." The point still stands though.

No it doesnt. The moment we throw women in jail for not wearing bras is the moment your point will stand. We don't. You have no point.

The rest of your post says nothing and just attempts to insult because you can't get over the fact your analogy has no connection whatsoever. Write a polite post with no childish insults or assumptions on my character and I'll respond.

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No it doesnt. The moment we throw women in jail for not wearing bras is the moment your point will stand. We don't. You have no point.

I think I already specificed that I meant "covering your breats" not "bra." The fact that your clinging to the bra thing indicates a odour of desperation in your argument.

$1:

The rest of your post says nothing and just attempts to insult because you can't get over the fact your analogy has no connection whatsoever. Write a polite post with no childish insults or assumptions on my character and I'll respond.

Nice concession speech.. You've completely lost your argument and are now laying claim to being a victim of personal attacks. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

The moment we throw women in jail for not wearing bras is the moment your point will stand.

And the coup de grace:

Vampire Diaries Actresses Arrested For Roadside Topless "Filming"

And from Sept 12, 2009. Didn't have to go far back.

Thanks for showing up though.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

The moment we throw women in jail for not wearing bras is the moment your point will stand.

And the coup de grace:

Vampire Diaries Actresses Arrested For Roadside Topless "Filming"

And from Sept 12, 2009. Didn't have to go far back.

Thanks for showing up though.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble but, that happened in Georgia. Btw, in Ontario, women CAN go topless in public if they so desire.

[Zipperfish]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

The moment we throw women in jail for not wearing bras is the moment your point will stand.

And the coup de grace:

Vampire Diaries Actresses Arrested For Roadside Topless "Filming"

And from Sept 12, 2009. Didn't have to go far back.

Thanks for showing up though.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble but, that happened in Georgia. Btw, in Ontario, women CAN go topless in public if they so desire.

And in BC, and in some states. But the fact remains in most states and in most provinces it is a crime. In areas where it isn't a crime, women who have attempted to go topless have been subject to harassment.

But this is all a sideshow to my main argument, that arguing whose morals are superior is a fool's game. People have morals; nations have interests. We should be basing our decisions on Canada's interests, not facile moral arguments.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

But this is all a sideshow to my main argument, that arguing whose morals are superior is a fool's game. People have morals; nations have interests. We should be basing our decisions on Canada's interests, not facile moral arguments.

I can certainly agree with that Zip. That being said, we're in Afghanistan not just because the US asked us to join them. Canadians were also killed on 9/11 and the current regime running the countryside is a part of that. Removing as many of those vermin as possible IS in our nations best interests. By trying to help rebuild a country and remove a safe haven for them is also in our best interests. It's not about our morals over theirs. It's about giving that country a hand in getting back to what it used to be. Mind you it was far from perfect but at least the general population had a LOT more freedoms than they do under the toweliban.

[putz]

$1:

And in BC, and in some states. But the fact remains in most states and in most provinces it is a crime. In areas where it isn't a crime, women who have attempted to go topless have been subject to harassment.

After reviewing the last 7 pages of posts I feel inclined to weigh in. I would like to see what happens to a woman in Taliban ruled Afghanistan if she walked around topless. My educated guess dead before she got 15 feet. One of our interpreters told me a story of how his sister was stoned to death for being in public without a man. Zipper your analogies are weak at best. Your trying to compare a religiously run society with a free democracy. I personally believe that things are better in Afghanistan right now then they were under the Taliban. Try talking to some local Afghans on your next trip to Afghanistan I love how people some people here automatically dismiss the mission, and disregard any ACTUAL experiences that people here have had. Let me share somethings that I heard DIRECTLY from locals about the Taliban rule in Afghanistan.

- An Afghani whom said that his sister had never been to school, she was 15 at the fall of Taliban rule now able to return to school.

- An Afghani now serving in CF that had to flee from Afghanistan, into Russia then Germany and eventually to Canada. All because his father had a falling out with the local Mullah and refused to join the Taliban.

- The simple fact that women are able to come up to us WITHOUT a male around and actually talk to us. The ability to drive around Kandahar City see women without Burqas on.

I could write at length about more things some chilling and others heart breaking.
Anybody that compares the life in Afghanistan, post ISAF and during Taliban rule, to that of Canada is a FUCKING MORON IMO!

[Akhenaten]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Nice concession speech.. You've completely lost your argument and are now laying claim to being a victim of personal attacks. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Not a concession, just admitting to myself that you're not remotely prepared to be resonable....and I 'dished out' no personal attackes towards you zip. If you're not willing to debate sincerely I have no need to respond. Someone else will tear your arguement to shreds, I don't have to continue doing it.

[Akhenaten]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Someone else will tear your arguement to shreds, I don't have to continue doing it.

putz putz:

$1:

And in BC, and in some states. But the fact remains in most states and in most provinces it is a crime. In areas where it isn't a crime, women who have attempted to go topless have been subject to harassment.

After reviewing the last 7 pages of posts I feel inclined to weigh in. I would like to see what happens to a woman in Taliban ruled Afghanistan if she walked around topless. My educated guess dead before she got 15 feet. One of our interpreters told me a story of how his sister was stoned to death for being in public without a man. Zipper your analogies are weak at best. Your trying to compare a religiously run society with a free democracy. I personally believe that things are better in Afghanistan right now then they were under the Taliban. Try talking to some local Afghans on your next trip to Afghanistan I love how people some people here automatically dismiss the mission, and disregard any ACTUAL experiences that people here have had. Let me share somethings that I heard DIRECTLY from locals about the Taliban rule in Afghanistan.

- An Afghani whom said that his sister had never been to school, she was 15 at the fall of Taliban rule now able to return to school.

- An Afghani now serving in CF that had to flee from Afghanistan, into Russia then Germany and eventually to Canada. All because his father had a falling out with the local Mullah and refused to join the Taliban.

- The simple fact that women are able to come up to us WITHOUT a male around and actually talk to us. The ability to drive around Kandahar City see women without Burqas on.

I could write at length about more things some chilling and others heart breaking.
Anybody that compares the life in Afghanistan, post ISAF and during Taliban rule, to that of Canada is a FUCKING MORON IMO!

Case in point.

[Zipperfish]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

But this is all a sideshow to my main argument, that arguing whose morals are superior is a fool's game. People have morals; nations have interests. We should be basing our decisions on Canada's interests, not facile moral arguments.

I can certainly agree with that Zip. That being said, we're in Afghanistan not just because the US asked us to join them. Canadians were also killed on 9/11 and the current regime running the countryside is a part of that. Removing as many of those vermin as possible IS in our nations best interests. By trying to help rebuild a country and remove a safe haven for them is also in our best interests. It's not about our morals over theirs. It's about giving that country a hand in getting back to what it used to be. Mind you it was far from perfect but at least the general population had a LOT more freedoms than they do under the toweliban.

Agreed to a point. I agreed with the invasion of Afghanistan, with the toppling of the Taliban government. I certainly have no qualms about hunting down and eliminating Taliban and Al Qeada members.

The problem comes with, as you say, rebulding the country. Why? It is clear from most of the comments here that people think that the Afghan and the Taliban are simply "not like us." There is no understanding of the culture there, and no attempt to understand their culture. For instance, when I offer that perhaps some of their extreme morality laws are analogous to our more moderate ones, the response is almost uniform hostility at the very idea.

So then my question is--why should we try to build (it's not rebuilding; Afghanistan was never "built" to start with) a country that we, by our own admission here, do not understand. That seems doomed to failure.

[Brenda]

What is the difference with the West, say... 300 years ago?

And to come back to Belgium... YES, it is important. Europe is important. I guess not in your narrow mind, but yes, it is the west, and it is important. Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, France, The UK...

Do you think Canada is the only one sending troops??? And losing troops???

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Nice concession speech.. You've completely lost your argument and are now laying claim to being a victim of personal attacks. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Not a concession, just admitting to myself that you're not remotely prepared to be resonable....and I 'dished out' no personal attackes towards you zip. If you're not willing to debate sincerely I have no need to respond. Someone else will tear your arguement to shreds, I don't have to continue doing it.

Your very first word in your very first post respondig to mine was to laugh at me and ridcule my argument, so let's not pull the old "Oh I'm a victim of personal attacks" now.

Not willing to debate? Give me a break--you never responded to any of my points, and of the questions I asked you. You just reacted with hostility. I find that quite interesting. Clearly you don't like having your assumptions challenged. Don't worry--you're certainly not alone in that regard.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Europe is important. I guess not in your narrow mind, but yes, it is the west, and it is important.

No what happens in Belgium is not relevant on a discussion of 'forcing our culture on Afghanistan'. Especially your point about 'ripping off burkas off school children' which we aren't doing.

Taliban = No choice which is what the Afghan culture had - a choice to wear the hajib or not.

NATO = They decide for themselves. No 'pushing' our culture on them.




BTW - I didn't insult you but you can't help doing it yourself. This is because you know full well you're wrong.