[Curtman]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

or take us down one of these rabbit holes of yours

You seem fairly familiar with inserting your head in holes....especially your own.

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

I'm in a good mood...insulting that dum phuk is one of life's pleasures.

Yawn...

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

The point you are making is that its better to have 100% black market for marijuana than a 50% black market, and it's complete nonsense to give up our regulatory control to gangsters. You are arguing in favour of the black market.

Those who support drugs remaining illegal don't support the black market. That's a dumb thing to say.

Do people who think we should keep cocaine, meth, and crack illegal support organized crime? No. Not even close.

[OnTheIce]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

Not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about it with you are two different things, Curt

Exactly!

I've said it many times. This is a topic worthy of discussion but when you spam the shit out of the forum and act the way Curt does it's like beating a dead horse.

Harper bad.

Pot good.

The end.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

The point you are making is that its better to have 100% black market for marijuana than a 50% black market, and it's complete nonsense to give up our regulatory control to gangsters. You are arguing in favour of the black market.

Those who support drugs remaining illegal don't support the black market. That's a dumb thing to say.

Do people who think we should keep cocaine, meth, and crack illegal support organized crime? No. Not even close.

If you say so. We could treat addicts with our health care system, it would be far more effective than treating them with our justice system.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

If you say so. We could treat addicts with our health care system, it would be far more effective than treating them with our justice system.

Unless you support the legalization of all hard drugs, you too support organized crime by your own definition.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

If you say so. We could treat addicts with our health care system, it would be far more effective than treating them with our justice system.

Unless you support the legalization of all hard drugs, you too support organized crime by your own definition.

I do if you replace legalization with regulation. Do you support continued deregulation of hard drugs?

Marijuana regulation is obvious, but you're arguing against even that. I disagree with lumping the two together.

[andyt]

So let me get this straight - according to OTI, if we legalize pot, we'll be flooded with pot that we export without tax to the US and that pot will then be re-imported into Canada by criminal gangs, because the legal pot situation will be the same as the legal tobacco situation. Have I got this right? Seems there's something wrong with the argument, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Also, Curt not wanting to rag on the natives, doesn't mention the large role they play in all this. The feds allow natives to produce cheap cigs on the reserve in the hope of creating employment. These cigs also enter the contraband stream, are a major portion of the contraband cigs. Doubt the Feds will go for the same deal with pot production.

[andyt]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

Curtman Curtman:

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

At current prices of $10 a gram, it would be difficult to sell marijuana at a higher rate than is currently acceptable. I'm not sure stores could sell cartons containing 20 XL joints for $150 or so and get away with it.

Oh look.. The people who don't want to talk about this are all still here talking about it.

Not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about it with you are two different things, Curt

It's his thread, you rag on it for him for posting it, but then make comments yourself? Now that is pretty Animal Farm of you - about what to expect from a commie. Are you more equal than Curt?

[Public_Domain]

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

Canada has the largest tobacco taxation rate in the world. It's roughly 300%, currently.

Its what now? $15 or more? Do you still wonder why 50% of cigarettes in Ontario are illegal?

You didn't answer my question.

I'm fully aware of the taxation issues on cigarettes; it was the point of my post.

Why would the government treat marijuana any differently and not tax themselves out of the legal market as they have done with cigarettes?

How do we prevent the government from milking the cow too much?

The govt "taxed themselves out of the market" because they allowed reservations to produce tobacco products.
Assuming your 50% figure is correct(and I'd love to see some sources for it) the vast bulk of illegal cigarette sales, regardless of percentage of market, come from sales on the reservations. And they do nothing to discourage mass volume purchases. I've seen people shell out $1400 for 2 large boxes of smokes at the Six Nations when I was a smoker. You'd have to be a moron to not know they aren't for personal consumption.
At one point the RCMP had cruisers parked at either end of the reserve pulling over cars as they exited the reserve to inspect them for contraband smokes. That is until the Natives started crying about it.

The fact is, the Natives are selling thousands upon thousands of cartons every year for cheaper than the standard cigarette makers can even make them for. Mind you they also use a lot of pretty shitty tobacco whereas the "quality" manufacturers have standards.

[Curtman]

andyt andyt:

Also, Curt not wanting to rag on the natives, doesn't mention the large role they play in all this.

I know right? Everything was just f*cking great until the damn Natives invented poverty.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

So let me get this straight - according to OTI, if we legalize pot, we'll be flooded with pot that we export without tax to the US and that pot will then be re-imported into Canada by criminal gangs, because the legal pot situation will be the same as the legal tobacco situation. Have I got this right?

No, you have to understand the illegal cigarette business before you can understand my point.

The majority of illegal cigarettes don't come from within Canada. 90% of illegal smokes in Ontario are manufactured in the US and smuggled into Canada via reserves. Specifically, the Akwasasne reserve.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The govt "taxed themselves out of the market" because they allowed reservations to produce tobacco products.

Incorrect. The effect of Canadian reservations producing cigarettes only accounts for 10% of the illegal business. The other 90% is from American producers on reserves.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Assuming your 50% figure is correct(and I'd love to see some sources for it) the vast bulk of illegal cigarette sales, regardless of percentage of market, come from sales on the reservations. And they do nothing to discourage mass volume purchases. I've seen people shell out $1400 for 2 large boxes of smokes at the Six Nations when I was a smoker. You'd have to be a moron to not know they aren't for personal consumption.

An interesting article to read which includes some of the numbers above:
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/sto ... 53a005cf39

The government has proven that they turn a blind eye to clear violations of the law when it comes to illegal smokes and Natives and they have also shown that they milk cigarette taxes for all they're worth.

Based on that, any legalization or regulation of any drug will likely face the same consequences when the government gets addicted to the cash and still refuses to treat Natives properly under the law.

[Unsound]

Curtman Curtman:

andyt andyt:

Also, Curt not wanting to rag on the natives, doesn't mention the large role they play in all this.

I know right? Everything was just f*cking great until the damn Natives invented poverty.

Is that what he said?

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Based on that, any legalization or regulation of any drug will likely face the same consequences when the government gets addicted to the cash and still refuses to treat Natives properly under the law.

Of course. This is why we've got rum runners everywhere, and why government run liquor stores lose money every year, struggling to gain any sizeable portion of the market.

$1:

With annual sales of over $650 million, the MLCC is one of the largest single buyers of beverage alcohol in the world, purchasing product from over 2,900 suppliers in 56 countries. Through its Distribution Centre, the MLCC supplies approximately 1,700 customers and annually processes over 63,000 orders.

The MLCC also has the distinction of being the first Canadian member of the U.S.-based Wine and Spirits Guild. Comprised of over 40 independent liquor retailers operating more than 500 stores throughout the United States, the Guild operates as a buying group whose goal is to supply Guild customers with high value products at great prices. Membership in the Guild is reserved for operators in non-competing markets and is by invitation only.

Where Does the Money Go?

The MLCC generates revenue for the provincial government to support programming in education, health care, social services and community projects. On Fridays, the MLCC transfers its net profit to the government - making a deposit not only into the provincial treasury, but into the future of all Manitobans.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

Of course. This is why we've got rum runners everywhere, and why government run liquor stores lose money every year, struggling to gain any sizeable portion of the market.

STOP! CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

Nice try.

So we'll choose to ignore the massive black hole that is cigarettes (the most comparable product to marijuana in it's sale and distribution) and focus on alcohol?