[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The guys at WACO that Bart thinks was government sanctioned murder (were freedom figthers).

The people at Waco were batsh*t crazy cult members. But, last I checked, they supposedly were free to be batsh*t crazy cult members if they wanted to be. They did not deserve to be burned to death over utterly fake weapons charges and made-up crap about child molest.

In the aftermath of Waco the government did not produce one scintilla of physical evidence to back up their claims that the cult members had automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, or live hand grenades.

The accusations of child molest are moot at this point, but the Federal government had zero jurisdiction in that aspect of this as that was a matter for State of Texas and local child protection authorities.

I agree. The govt didn't have to be so agressive, just wait them out.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

A better solution? How about recognizing that we had no need to wage a cold war at all.

That wasn't our choice. When the Soviets reneged on Yalta and Potsdam and refused to restore the sovereignty of the countries under their control they became a hostile occupier. The Soviets were also less than trustworthy to the USA as hundreds of US airmen who crashed or landed their aircraft in the USSR after operations against Japan were never returned to the USA. Add to this that the Soviets at the end of the war in Europe attempted to seize Denmark and they were making clear their hostile imperial intentions.

In any case, they lost.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The guys at WACO that Bart thinks was government sanctioned murder (were freedom figthers).

The people at Waco were batsh*t crazy cult members. But, last I checked, they supposedly were free to be batsh*t crazy cult members if they wanted to be. They did not deserve to be burned to death over utterly fake weapons charges and made-up crap about child molest.

In the aftermath of Waco the government did not produce one scintilla of physical evidence to back up their claims that the cult members had automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, or live hand grenades.

The accusations of child molest are moot at this point, but the Federal government had zero jurisdiction in that aspect of this as that was a matter for State of Texas and local child protection authorities.

I agree. The govt didn't have to be so agressive, just wait them out.

The now-retired FBI negotiators said exactly the same thing on CNN last month when CNN ran an 18th anniversary story on the tragedy.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The guys at WACO that Bart thinks was government sanctioned murder (were freedom figthers).

The people at Waco were batsh*t crazy cult members. But, last I checked, they supposedly were free to be batsh*t crazy cult members if they wanted to be. They did not deserve to be burned to death over utterly fake weapons charges and made-up crap about child molest.

In the aftermath of Waco the government did not produce one scintilla of physical evidence to back up their claims that the cult members had automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, or live hand grenades.

The accusations of child molest are moot at this point, but the Federal government had zero jurisdiction in that aspect of this as that was a matter for State of Texas and local child protection authorities.

I was hoping you'd chime in and in fact I used that example because I knew you couldn't resist.

This is in fact my point. Other people, the same type that made the call on Afghanistan, Iraq, OBL, etc thought other wise.

If that Taliban want to live a glorious islamic paradise who are we to object (baring in mind they had NOTHING to do with 9/11).

As for WACO, I'd have to re-read all the facts of the case. Most of what I remember came from your previous post and that Timy Daly TV movie. I do recall they were guilty of forging checks though and such ripping off many of their neighbourhood businesses.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

A better solution? How about recognizing that we had no need to wage a cold war at all.

That wasn't our choice. When the Soviets reneged on Yalta and Potsdam and refused to restore the sovereignty of the countries under their control they became a hostile occupier. The Soviets were also less than trustworthy to the USA as hundreds of US airmen who crashed or landed their aircraft in the USSR after operations against Japan were never returned to the USA. Add to this that the Soviets at the end of the war in Europe attempted to seize Denmark and they were making clear their hostile imperial intentions.

In any case, they lost.

I think you are just a tad bit biased. The US was no angel and quite frankly with Patton openly saying what he did if I were Stalin I'd have thought the US would have kept right on going past Berlin too.

Face it. 50 years of cold war could have been avoided if Russia & America didn't act like complete pricks.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I do recall they were guilty of forging checks though and such ripping off many of their neighbourhood businesses.

And 86 men, women, and children deserved to be burned to death for kiting cheques?

In any case, what happened there was far out of proportion to what should have happened. The Clinton Administration wanted to put on a show (which is why they had a fully-staffed media center on site) and justice had nothing to do with it.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

I do recall they were guilty of forging checks though and such ripping off many of their neighbourhood businesses.

And 86 men, women, and children deserved to be burned to death for kiting cheques?

In any case, what happened there was far out of proportion to what should have happened. The Clinton Administration wanted to put on a show (which is why they had a fully-staffed media center on site) and justice had nothing to do with it.

I'm not supporting what happened. Not in the least. When have you ever known me to side with the government over heavy handed action like this?

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

As was my comment on you coming up with a better idea in the West's battle against the Soviet Union.

A better solution? How about recognizing that we had no need to wage a cold war at all.

Time and again the historical record showed that the USSR was just as afraid of fighting us as we were of them. The record showed that they had far less warheads back during the Cuban missile crisis days then we thought and they weren't as much trying to provoke us but to send a message about us surrounding them with missiles (ie we started removing the ones in Turkey after that).

You yourself said that Soviet equipment was far inferior during the cold war, a fact they probably knew and as such would not have waged open war with us.

I'd say my solution would have been finding commonality in living on this planet rather then a fear of who was going to strike first.

Is this a five minute argument or the full half-hour?

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Too bad one can't win wars using 20/20 hindsight.

Will we say that when we ignore all the evidence of us putting into power a group of crazies in Libya?

I know eh? Good golly, it's a good thing we didn't see any of this coming or else we mightn't have bothered going into Bosnia in defense of the muslims there.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I think you are just a tad bit biased.

I am. Getting shot at by Soviet and Cuban troops will do that.

DerbyX DerbyX:

The US was no angel and quite frankly with Patton openly saying what he did if I were Stalin I'd have thought the US would have kept right on going past Berlin too.

Patton saw the Russians as the imperialists they were. Bear in mind that in 1939 the Russians had embarked on two separate imperialist adventures by invading Poland and Finland and Patton saw the bastards solidifying their gains at the end of WW2 when they should have been pushed back to their pre-war borders.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Face it. 50 years of cold war could have been avoided if Russia & America didn't act like complete pricks.

Tell that to an Eastern European.

[Rael]

As we applaud shooting an unarmed man in the face we should note what we have become as a society.

At least be honest with ourselves.

Tossing out, innocent till proven guilty, and applauding it is always a barometre of society. Even if the accused admits to doing it, we have trials.

I would enjoyed to have seen him in trial , hear the defence and then toss him into the general prison population .....ooops.

I will settle for watching mass amounts of Christians reveling in his unarmed death.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DerbyX DerbyX:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Too bad one can't win wars using 20/20 hindsight.

Will we say that when we ignore all the evidence of us putting into power a group of crazies in Libya?

I know eh? Good golly, it's a good thing we didn't see any of this coming or else we mightn't have bothered going into Bosnia in defense of the muslims there.

Know how many here think we went in on the wrong side?

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

A better solution? How about recognizing that we had no need to wage a cold war at all.

That wasn't our choice. When the Soviets reneged on Yalta and Potsdam and refused to restore the sovereignty of the countries under their control they became a hostile occupier. The Soviets were also less than trustworthy to the USA as hundreds of US airmen who crashed or landed their aircraft in the USSR after operations against Japan were never returned to the USA. Add to this that the Soviets at the end of the war in Europe attempted to seize Denmark and they were making clear their hostile imperial intentions.

In any case, they lost.

The saddest part of all that is, during all those conferences, Roosevelt actually thought Stalin was a man of his word while he thought Churchill always had ulterior motives that involved the British Empire.
However, I also think that if Roosevelt wasn't as ill as he was, he might have cottoned to Stalin's games.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I know eh? Good golly, it's a good thing we didn't see any of this coming or else we mightn't have bothered going into Bosnia in defense of the muslims there.

Know how many here think we went in on the wrong side?

Talking about me again?

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I know eh? Good golly, it's a good thing we didn't see any of this coming or else we mightn't have bothered going into Bosnia in defense of the muslims there.

Know how many here think we went in on the wrong side?

Talking about me again?