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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:18 pm
 


hurley_108 hurley_108:
RUEZ RUEZ:
hurley_108 hurley_108:
I realize your arguing with kenmore, but that's no excuse to be obtuse. Yes, Tim didn't deserve to die, let alone so horribly. But just because an act is sickening isn't reason to treat a human being like an animal. Li isn't sane. No sane person would do what he did. I would have thought that would be obvious.
Give me a break Hurley. How is forcing people to take their medication so they don't decapitate random people, treating them like animals?


How do you propose to force them?


And when people are forced to take medication, what will we do when it doesn't work anyway and the same result still happens? Medication is not the answer to every mental disorder. In fact, medication can even make these kinds of problems worse.

Sometimes we just have to accept that horrible shit happens in this world, and there's nothing we can do to stop it from happening at least once.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:20 pm
 


JustKate JustKate:
We can't bring Tim McLean back, but we could do something here that prevents it from happening again!


Do you know anything about the subject you're talking about? Have you read the article that this thread was born from?

Li is going to a mental hospital, probably for the rest of his life. I hope nobody has to tell you this again, because it's getting kind of tiring trying to ram this concept into your head.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:21 pm
 


romanP romanP:
And when people are forced to take medication, what will we do when it doesn't work anyway and the same result still happens? Medication is not the answer to every mental disorder. In fact, medication can even make these kinds of problems worse.


Excellent points.

$1:
Sometimes we just have to accept that horrible shit happens in this world, and there's nothing we can do to stop it from happening at least once.


Well according to some people, we could lock them up forever. Or execute them. It's a wonder they don't advocate for doing so upon diagnosis of a mental disorder...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:22 pm
 


I did read it ALL. I'm disgusted.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:24 pm
 


happening at least once Roman, what about stopping it from happening again ?

Theres nothing here stopping him from getting out.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:25 pm
 


kenmore kenmore:
Akhenaten Akhenaten:
"People with shcizophrenia do not think and have poor judgement into their illness. "

Then why are they entrusted with their own treatment? I know a schizophrenic who stopped taking his meds because ‘the Voice’ told him to and then one night he cut off his balls with a kitchen knife. If he was being watched/institutionalized this wouldn’t have happened.

100% true story.

"I suggest you get a good text on mental illness and research the various pathologies. "

That's what we counted on the doctors for the first time he was in a psych ward for 4 days. They already released him and judged him a non-threat.


Its called rights.. and the mentally ill have them too.. you and I or anyone else cannot be forced to take treatment. Sounds unreal but its true. The only time they can be forced is if they are hospitalized and declared incompetent. This can be done but they can challenge it under the laws. Blood testing and urine testing is also a voluntary thing... In Ontario there is Brian's law which was put in place after a similar incident where a sports broadcaster was killed in Ottawa, the introduced community treatment orders but this too is a voluntary thing.



I am completely aware of the patient's rights to self treatment as expressed self-evidently in my post which you quoted. The obvious question at hand is whether or not people with shcizophrenia can be inherently competent to facilitate their own treatment or assuming that is a yes, if we scrutinize their capabilities before release effeciently to be safe both to them and others.
Obviously the patient has the right, outside the institution, to decide to not take the drugs that we are entrusting to keep him from being a threat to either himself or others. So we give them the right to keep taking the medication that keeps him 'competent enough to have those rights', in your words. I am far from the only one who considers this a liability to both patient and public.
Your simplistic dismissal of this common point by pretending you are informing me of the phenomenon of 'rights' makes me think you're going to purposely miss the point I'm making forever. A point continually brought up by professionals in the field.



Akh


Last edited by Akhenaten on Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:26 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
happening at least once Roman, what about stopping it from happening again ?

Theres nothing here stopping him from getting out.


Nothing? Really nothing? If so, then he must be out already.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:27 pm
 


This is undeniably tragic but the right outcome. This man was totally insane and could not tell right from wrong. If that's the case, you are "not criminally responsible" according to the Criminal Code. He may well spend his entire life in a psychiatric hospital.

He isn't a true criminal in the sense we think of a person choosing to commit a horrible act. He is a deeply disturbed man who needs help. Honestly, can you imagine anyone doing this crime who wasn't insane?

I have been involved with schizophrenic accused persons and the cases are always highly disturbing. I did one with an arsonist who said voices told her to burn down her neighbours' homes. After she was found NCR she was sent to a hospital. Last I heard she had made tremendous progress but was nowhere close to ever being released. Do not underestimate the seriousness of this decision. This man may never be released.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:27 pm
 


JustKate JustKate:
I did read it ALL. I'm disgusted.


Well, that makes you an expert, then, doesn't it?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:30 pm
 


Canadian justice at its best! I feel for the family of the victim and the people on the bus who experienced this all.

Of course he is crazy but he should also be held responsible for what he has done and should have a minimum of 25 years in the loonie bin


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:36 pm
 


ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:
Canadian justice at its best! I feel for the family of the victim and the people on the bus who experienced this all.

Of course he is crazy but he should also be held responsible for what he has done and should have a minimum of 25 years in the loonie bin

So, here we go, 25 years, with possible parole after 7? or 11? And then he gets out early for good behaviour?

I rather see him locked up in a mental facility. At least IF he ever gets out of there (which I highly doubt) he will have been treated. He won't be in prison.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:36 pm
 


hurley_108 hurley_108:
martin14 martin14:
happening at least once Roman, what about stopping it from happening again ?

Theres nothing here stopping him from getting out.


Nothing? Really nothing? If so, then he must be out already.



Dont be an idiot Hurley, whats the guarantee he wont do this again ?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:40 pm
 


Brenda Brenda:
ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:
Canadian justice at its best! I feel for the family of the victim and the people on the bus who experienced this all.

Of course he is crazy but he should also be held responsible for what he has done and should have a minimum of 25 years in the loonie bin

So, here we go, 25 years, with possible parole after 7? or 11? And then he gets out early for good behaviour?

I rather see him locked up in a mental facility. At least IF he ever gets out of there (which I highly doubt) he will have been treated. He won't be in prison.



Ya know what? to hell with it just shoot him! right outside of the loonie bin and tell the patients, this is what happens when you dont take your medicine! :twisted: bet cha the majority straighten out real quik!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:41 pm
 


hurley_108 hurley_108:
martin14 martin14:
But there is no guarantee he wont be out, maybe not in a week, but
3-4 years ?

and what about the rest of us ?


Well we'll just have to trust that if he is released in 3-4 years, he will have been treated in some way, convinced to keep taking medication, something, in those years.



'We' have already been down that road! Vincent Li was under the care of doctors and being trusted to take his medications, and at some point chose not to. Clearly unwilling or unable to truly understand the potential consequences of that choice. Tim McLean paid for that decision with his life in one of the most horrific ways ever witnessed by others. They also are victims of Vincent Li's decision not to take the prescribed medications.

'We' are now at the point in time where not being any better than Vincent Li cannot be used by anyone as a valid argument for keeping him alive unless those people who hold such an opinion can truly say, without a hint of reservation that they would have no problem with one of their own loved ones being another of Vincent Li's travelling companions!

Society cannot guarantee any of us 'safe passage on our journey through life', but wherever clear-cut cases of danger exist such as in this case, Our safety and well-being must come first at any cost.

'APPEARANCES BE DAMNED!


Last edited by Yogi on Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:43 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
happening at least once Roman, what about stopping it from happening again ?


That's already taken care of.

$1:
Theres nothing here stopping him from getting out.


I'm pretty sure they're not going to let someone with a history like his just walk out of whatever hospital he ends up in.


Last edited by romanP on Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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