[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Nikki Haley on this one. There is no peace process and there never has been. If there's any upside to this, my hope is that it will put that mirage to rest.

Agreed. And now, there never will be one, as the US was possibly the only country willing to negotiate with both sides.

[BeaverFever]

stratos stratos:

Well I'll come out and say it for the record I think it is a dam great thing with Trump recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol. If a bunch of Palestinians want to cry about it I'll remind you all again the Palestinians never had a country UNTIL Israel gave them the land to form one.

What are you talking about? Palestinians still don’t have a country.

Israel has never given the Palestinians any land. (They have withdrawn from Gaza but they have never relinquished sovereignty over it).

[BeaverFever]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

herbie herbie:

Yeah, Israel is only illegally occupying parts of Jerusalem.
Big difference in your books?

Jerusalem belongs to Israel. Not part of it but all of it.

If left to the UN the very existence of Israel would be 'illegal' and the Muslims would claim it was their legal right to exterminate the Jews.

That's the thing about laws needing to be coupled with morality that I used to point out here by saying that The Holocaust was perfectly legal. It was. The Germans were very careful to pass laws and regulations that made the whole process orderly and legal.

Left to their own devices I've no doubt that the UN, the European anti-Jewish leftists, and yourself would solve the problem in Israel by making the Jews disarm themselves and then allowing your Muslim buddies to finish the job the Hitler started.

But that's not going to happen. Israel won't allow it. Trump, like Bill Clinton and the Democrats of the 1990's recognize the fact that Jerusalem IS the capitol city of Israel by nature of the very fact that Israel holds the city despite several efforts to dislodge them.

It is a functional reality. Just like Trump winning the election.

Deal with it.

Just about everything in this post is completely false and Barts argut that you can legally claim a city as yours simply by occupying it militarily is also false.

[BartSimpson]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Just about everything in this post is completely false and Barts argut that you can legally claim a city as yours simply by occupying it militarily is also false.

So when do you propose giving Montreal back to France?

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Nikki Haley on this one. There is no peace process and there never has been. If there's any upside to this, my hope is that it will put that mirage to rest.

Agreed. And now, there never will be one, as the US was possibly the only country willing to negotiate with both sides.

The US hasn't negotiated in good faith with both sides since Jimmy Carter brokered a fair and lasting peace between Egypt and Israel. Carter came the closest to a brokered peace with the Palestinians but Arafat fucked it up because he refused to renounce violence against the Jews.

Reagan wasn't interested in negotiating with the terrorists unless they were Iranians.

Bush Senior negotiated with Muslims by bombing the shit out of them.

Clinton favored the terrorists over Israel.

Bush Junior favored the Saudis because he got hand jobs from their King.

Obama made it clear from the get-go that he sided with the Muslims.

And Trump is making it pretty clear that he sides with civilized people. And that doesn't include people who refuse to renounce violence against Jews.

Keep in mind that Trump's son-in-law and daughter Ivanka are Jewish. Maybe not faithful Jews, but all the same.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Nikki Haley on this one. There is no peace process and there never has been. If there's any upside to this, my hope is that it will put that mirage to rest.

Agreed. And now, there never will be one, as the US was possibly the only country willing to negotiate with both sides.

The US hasn't negotiated in good faith with both sides since Jimmy Carter brokered a fair and lasting peace between Egypt and Israel. Carter came the closest to a brokered peace with the Palestinians but Arafat fucked it up because he refused to renounce violence against the Jews.

Reagan wasn't interested in negotiating with the terrorists unless they were Iranians.

Bush Senior negotiated with Muslims by bombing the shit out of them.

Clinton favored the terrorists over Israel.

Bush Junior favored the Saudis because he got hand jobs from their King.

Obama made it clear from the get-go that he sided with the Muslims.

And Trump is making it pretty clear that he sides with civilized people. And that doesn't include people who refuse to renounce violence against Jews.

Keep in mind that Trump's son-in-law and daughter Ivanka are Jewish. Maybe not faithful Jews, but all the same.

Clinton got an agreement between Arafat and Rabin, even though it was never followed through with. He tried to get Barak and Arafat to agree a year later.

There were the 'Roadmap' talks, with the US, EU, UN and Russia in 2003. The Geneva Accords were proposed later that year.

In 2008 they tried again with George W, and had agreements between Olmert and Arafat. The talks continued under Obama, with Secretary Clinton getting a 10 month freeze in West Bank hostilities under Netanyahu and Abbas.

But Trump has ensured the Palestinians and supporters will never fully trust any negotiations led by the US. So who else would have the political will to try?

No country I can think of.

[Sunnyways]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

The Crimea equivalence might match up if Trump backed the Muslims.

One equivalence is that might is right.

[Sunnyways]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

herbie herbie:

Yeah, Israel is only illegally occupying parts of Jerusalem.
Big difference in your books?

Jerusalem belongs to Israel. Not part of it but all of it.

If left to the UN the very existence of Israel would be 'illegal' and the Muslims would claim it was their legal right to exterminate the Jews.

That's the thing about laws needing to be coupled with morality that I used to point out here by saying that The Holocaust was perfectly legal. It was. The Germans were very careful to pass laws and regulations that made the whole process orderly and legal.

Left to their own devices I've no doubt that the UN, the European anti-Jewish leftists, and yourself would solve the problem in Israel by making the Jews disarm themselves and then allowing your Muslim buddies to finish the job the Hitler started.

But that's not going to happen. Israel won't allow it. Trump, like Bill Clinton and the Democrats of the 1990's recognize the fact that Jerusalem IS the capitol city of Israel by nature of the very fact that Israel holds the city despite several efforts to dislodge them.

It is a functional reality. Just like Trump winning the election.

Deal with it.

All countries strive to tidy up and make their theft and other crimes ‘legal’. We’ve done a great job of that in North America. It’s human nature.

[Sunnyways]

The fundamental Israeli unit of currency in these land calculations is the Arab, as in how many Arabs do we have to take in or move off this piece of real estate. East Jerusalem is worth a high price for various reasons but in the West Bank the number of Arab Israelis needs to be minimized in future land acquisitions. Hence the attractiveness of Area C to honest pols like Naftali Bennett - a very low price of Arabs per hectare there and once you take that there can be no Palestine. In the coming years, we will see the grip on this land tighten and all sorts of strange euphemisms doing violence to the English language for the enclosed Bantustans thereby created.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

But Trump has ensured the Palestinians and supporters will never fully trust any negotiations led by the US.

You're not looking at this from the point of view of someone of a culture that values a strong leader. You, like most Canadians across the political spectrum, value consensus.

Muslims and in particular Arab Muslims loathe the notion of consensus as a form of governance and they view anyone who likes it as weak.

Now that Trump has issued the order that was authorized 22 years ago by people who lacked the will to execute it the Muslims are testing his will with their highly orchestrated spontaneous three days of rage.

If he bends then they'll double down on their violence to see what else they can get.

If he doesn't they'll respect him and it will make negotiations more effective because the US will do so from a position of strength. The Muslims will view Trump as a strong leader who, like the Muslims, doesn't give a shit about consensus.

This is important to the Muslim leadership because the Koran prohibits negotiating with anyone so long as the Muslims hold the upper hand. They are only permitted to negotiate when they are weaker than the other parties in the discussion.

Carter was able to settle things with Egypt and Israel because Israel held the Sinai and there was no way the Egyptians could oust them militarily...therefore the Koran permitted the peace talks.

So believe it or not, recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capitol may well lead to the peace process that has evaded everyone to this point.

See, now that the Muslims are the weaker party they have license from their faith to negotiate.

[herbie]

Firstly, anyone who believes that even taking the grievances of the Palestinians into consideration equates to siding with them makes it obvious their opinion on the subject is worthless.
As is those of people using 'the Bible says so'.

Second, everyone agrees that a settlement is unlikely, but this guarantees one will never happen.
An action taken, knowing it will have the worst possible outcome and passed off as something positive only further points out what the lying, devious sack of shit can pass off as he destabilizes the world and calls it MAGA.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

But Trump has ensured the Palestinians and supporters will never fully trust any negotiations led by the US.

You're not looking at this from the point of view of someone of a culture that values a strong leader. You, like most Canadians across the political spectrum, value consensus.

Muslims and in particular Arab Muslims loathe the notion of consensus as a form of governance and they view anyone who likes it as weak.

Now that Trump has issued the order that was authorized 22 years ago by people who lacked the will to execute it the Muslims are testing his will with their highly orchestrated spontaneous three days of rage.

If he bends then they'll double down on their violence to see what else they can get.

If he doesn't they'll respect him and it will make negotiations more effective because the US will do so from a position of strength. The Muslims will view Trump as a strong leader who, like the Muslims, doesn't give a shit about consensus.

This is important to the Muslim leadership because the Koran prohibits negotiating with anyone so long as the Muslims hold the upper hand. They are only permitted to negotiate when they are weaker than the other parties in the discussion.

Carter was able to settle things with Egypt and Israel because Israel held the Sinai and there was no way the Egyptians could oust them militarily...therefore the Koran permitted the peace talks.

So believe it or not, recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capitol may well lead to the peace process that has evaded everyone to this point.

See, now that the Muslims are the weaker party they have license from their faith to negotiate.

An interesting perspective. Thanks!

[BartSimpson]

herbie herbie:

Firstly, anyone who believes that even taking the grievances of the Palestinians into consideration equates to siding with them makes it obvious their opinion on the subject is worthless.

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=433

$1:

This official PA map of "Palestine” was broadcast on PA TV in September 2011. The map includes both the PA areas and all of Israel (excluding the Golan Heights) wrapped in the Palestinian flag - a symbol of Palestinian sovereignty over the whole area - and has a key through it, symbolizing ownership. Similar maps presenting all of Israel as "Palestine" appear in Palestinian schoolbooks and are shown regularly on PA TV.

Lots of other things on that site that quote your Palestinian friends and link back to their sites that will show you how fair and reasonable they are.

[martin14]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

But Trump has ensured the Palestinians and supporters will never fully trust any negotiations led by the US. So who else would have the political will to try?
No country I can think of.

Peace talks for 22 years, not much has actually changed.
Talks, no talks, for the Arabs, no problem, they can wait.
No sense of panic.

Perhaps now when they see that things can still move in spite of them doing nothing,
they will be in a mood to do a deal.

All Jerusalem is now off the table. Like it ever was on the table.

Maybe the Palis should think about cutting a deal and saving the last piece
of Jerusalem they still have.. Before they lose that, too.

[stratos]

$1:

An action taken, knowing it will have the worst possible outcome and passed off as something positive only further points out what the lying, devious sack of shit can pass off as he destabilizes the world and calls it "CHANGE for the better".

Because that's exactly what Obama did with the tact support of HRC as secretary of state.