[Curtman]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

At current prices of $10 a gram, it would be difficult to sell marijuana at a higher rate than is currently acceptable. I'm not sure stores could sell cartons containing 20 XL joints for $150 or so and get away with it.

Oh look.. The people who don't want to talk about this are all still here talking about it.

[Curtman]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

The illegal cigarette industry is just a myth? And here I thought it was education, cost and scare tactics that got people off cigarettes.

You should ask Lemmy for a lesson about the Laffer curve, it has the answers you seek.

Our government sets the taxation level for cigarettes. When we lowered those taxes, the illegal cigarette industry nearly disappeared. When we raise them, people are motivated to quit. We have control over both those things. Somewhere there is an optimal taxation rate to achieve our goals with that product.

With marijuana, we have no control whatsoever. Gangsters choose a price based on what the market will bear, and prohibition only works to ensure they have a monopoly. Nearly 100% of the market is illegal. It costs them roughly $0.43 per gram to produce and sells for $10 to $15/gram. They keep all the profit. Nothing we can do will reduce usage or availability.

Prohibition is infinite taxation, and it doesn't work.

$1:

At the extreme of a 100% tax rate, the government theoretically collects zero revenue because taxpayers change their behavior in response to the tax rate: either they have no incentive to work or they find a way to avoid paying taxes. Thus, the "economic effect" of a 100% tax rate is to decrease the tax base to zero. If this is the case, then somewhere between 0% and 100% lies a tax rate that will maximize revenue.

In this case we aren't trying to maximize revenue, we're trying to reduce the black market. The same economic forces are in effect.

[OnTheIce]

50% of the Ontario market for cigarettes is illegal.

Why would the government do anything different with marijuana?

We've seen what happens in Canada with respect to booze and cigs. They're cash cows and governments milk them. Sure they play with taxation to lower the illegal market but in the end, taxes always end up higher.

Obama is going to raise taxes on cigarettes to raise money for his children's health program. 32.8 billion worth of taxes annually.

Marijuana will be no different.

The government will eventually price themselves out of the market as they have done with cigarettes and booze and the illegal trade will thrive and become the dominate force that it is today.

Legalization would be a great idea if the government didn't pimp these vices for income all while turning a blind eye to the OC that's taking over the industry.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

50% of the Ontario market for cigarettes is illegal.

Canada has the largest tobacco taxation rate in the world. It's roughly 300%, currently.

$1:

According to the Canadian government, for several years Canada
increased the price of cigarettes through federal and provincial
excise taxes, which resulted in a steady decline in the number of
Canadians who smoke. However, these efforts had an unintended
consequence--a sharp increase in smuggling activity resulting in
revenue losses exceeding $2 billion (in Canadian dollars) for the
federal and provincial governments in 1993 alone, according to the
Canadian government. From 1984 through 1993, federal taxes on a pack
of 20 cigarettes increased from 42 cents to $1.93 in Canadian
dollars. Provincial taxes, levied in addition to the federal taxes,
increased significantly as well. For example, from 1984 through
1993, Qu�bec's cigarette taxes rose from 46 cents to $1.78 per pack,
and Ontario's rose from 63 cents to $1.66 per pack (in Canadian
dollars). As a result, the average real price of a pack of
cigarettes in Canada--in 1994 Canadian dollars--increased from $2.64
in 1984 to $5.65 in 1993.

According to a 1994 study for the National Coalition Against Crime
and Tobacco Contraband, because of these price increases, Canadians
found lower-priced alternatives on the black market. During most of
this period, cigarettes made in Canada were exported tax-free to the
United States. Organized criminal groups purchased Canadian
cigarettes that had been exported to the United States and smuggled
them back into Canada. This resulted in more than an 11-fold
increase in United States cigarette imports from Canada from 1990 to
1993 (see fig. 1). The 1994 study found that an Indian reserve that
straddles the U.S.-Canadian border between Cornwall, Ontario, and
Massena, New York, had become the primary conduit for smuggling
cigarettes into Canada. Once in Canada, the cigarettes were passed
through elaborate networks for distribution to vendors throughout the
country. By evading the Canadian federal and provincial taxes,
smugglers were able to earn huge profits from contraband cigarettes.
According to the Canadian government, profits for smuggled cigarettes
were an estimated $500 per case,\7 or $500,000 per truckload, in
Canadian dollars.\8

Figure 1: U.S. Cigarette
Imports From Canada, 1984
Through 1996

(See figure in printed
edition.)

Source: GAO analysis of U.S. Department of Agriculture's data

In 1993, approximately 2.1 million Canadians consumed an estimated 90
million to 100 million cartons of contraband cigarettes with a legal
retail value of about $4.5 billion in Canadian dollars. That year,
the problem was greatest in the province of Qu�bec, where, the
Canadian government estimated, contraband cigarettes made up over 60
percent of the market. In other parts of the country, according to
the government, between 15 and 40 percent of the cigarettes sold were
contraband.

While citing the effectiveness of past efforts to reduce smoking by
increasing cigarette taxes, Prime Minister Chr�tien stated in
February 1994 that the widespread availability of relatively
inexpensive contraband cigarettes was negating government controls on
the distribution, sale, and consumption of cigarettes. According to
the Canadian Prime Minister, as the portion of the Canadian market
supplied by smuggled tobacco increased, the average price paid for
cigarettes dropped. Access to cheap contraband tobacco undermined
the government's health policy objectives of reducing tobacco
consumption, particularly among youth.

In February 1994, Prime Minister Chr�tien addressed the smuggling
problem by proposing, among other actions,

-- strengthening enforcement at targeted smuggling areas,
particularly along the U.S.-Canadian border;

-- reducing the federal cigarette tax by $5 per carton in all
provinces, effective February 9, 1994, and matching any
provincial tax reduction over $5, to a maximum federal reduction
of $10 (in Canadian dollars);

-- imposing an export tax of $8 per carton (in Canadian dollars) to
be paid by tobacco manufacturers;

-- imposing a 3-year federal surtax on tobacco manufacturers'
profits to fund a major public education program and other
health measures;

-- requiring manufacturers to clearly mark individual cigarettes to
differentiate cigarettes manufactured for domestic and export
use; and

-- further restricting access to cigarettes by minors.

From February 9 through April 15, 1994, federal and provincial taxes
were significantly lowered in the five provinces where international
smuggling was particularly troublesome, including Qu�bec and Ontario.
For example, combined taxes in Qu�bec fell by $2.10 per pack, and
taxes in Ontario fell by $1.92 per pack in Canadian dollars.\9

Although taxes in these provinces have increased slightly since, once
the initial tax cuts took effect, the contraband cigarette market
dried up, according to the 1994 study for the National Coalition
Against Crime and Tobacco Contraband. Consistent with the study's
findings, U.S. cigarette imports from Canada dropped about 96
percent from 1993 through 1996 (see fig. 1).

-- http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GAOREPORTS ... -98-50.htm


I love this argument, it supports my assertion.

$1:

As a result, the average real price of a pack of
cigarettes in Canada--in 1994 Canadian dollars--increased from $2.64
in 1984 to $5.65 in 1993.

Its what now? $15 or more? Do you still wonder why 50% of cigarettes in Ontario are illegal?

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

Canada has the largest tobacco taxation rate in the world. It's roughly 300%, currently.

Its what now? $15 or more? Do you still wonder why 50% of cigarettes in Ontario are illegal?

You didn't answer my question.

I'm fully aware of the taxation issues on cigarettes; it was the point of my post.

Why would the government treat marijuana any differently and not tax themselves out of the legal market as they have done with cigarettes?

How do we prevent the government from milking the cow too much?

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

Canada has the largest tobacco taxation rate in the world. It's roughly 300%, currently.

Its what now? $15 or more? Do you still wonder why 50% of cigarettes in Ontario are illegal?

You didn't answer my question.

I'm fully aware of the taxation issues on cigarettes; it was the point of my post.

Why would the government treat marijuana any differently and not tax themselves out of the legal market as they have done with cigarettes?

How do we prevent the government from milking the cow too much?

I believe I did answer your question. By adjusting the tax rate, we can reach different goals and Canada's Liberal government proved that. If we wanted to decrease black market cigarettes, we have that capability we could do it tomorrow.

At some point economic forces prevent that from working absolutely. When we raise taxes too much, a black market appears and negates our efforts at health and safety. It ends up creating violence. If we lower them too much, availability negates our efforts at health and safety. It ends up creating disease. The Laffer Curve is an economists restatement of a universal truth called The Law of Diminishing Returns.

The point you are making is that its better to have 100% black market for marijuana than a 50% black market, and it's complete nonsense to give up our regulatory control to gangsters. You are arguing in favour of the black market.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

50% of the Ontario market for cigarettes is illegal.

Is that a fact? 50%? I'd be very surprised if the actual number is that high.

[ShepherdsDog]

Curtman Curtman:

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

At current prices of $10 a gram, it would be difficult to sell marijuana at a higher rate than is currently acceptable. I'm not sure stores could sell cartons containing 20 XL joints for $150 or so and get away with it.

Oh look.. The people who don't want to talk about this are all still here talking about it.

oh look, the suck who had a meltdown and told us he was leaving is still here whining

[Curtman]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Curtman Curtman:

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

At current prices of $10 a gram, it would be difficult to sell marijuana at a higher rate than is currently acceptable. I'm not sure stores could sell cartons containing 20 XL joints for $150 or so and get away with it.

Oh look.. The people who don't want to talk about this are all still here talking about it.

oh look, the suck who had a meltdown and told us he was leaving is still here whining

You misspelled it.

[Public_Domain]

[Curtman]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

Curtman Curtman:

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

At current prices of $10 a gram, it would be difficult to sell marijuana at a higher rate than is currently acceptable. I'm not sure stores could sell cartons containing 20 XL joints for $150 or so and get away with it.

Oh look.. The people who don't want to talk about this are all still here talking about it.

Not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about it with you are two different things, Curt

No problem. I'm glad you are here anyway. I'm also glad that for the most part these conversations don't always devolve into personal attacks and attacks on my family even if the moderators are complicit with that. I had a "meltdown" because it became impossible to discuss anything here without both of those for a while.

Occasionally we have good conversation about this topic.

[ShepherdsDog]

Attacks on your family..... ...Gunnair asked how you justified your recreational drug use to your family. Nothing like creating a little drama where none existed. The only one who made inappropriate comments about your family was jj and that was just a couple of weeks ago You`re fair game, because you engage in personal attacks as well.

[Curtman]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Attacks on your family..... ...Gunnair asked how you justified your recreational drug use to your family. Nothing like creating a little drama where none existed. The only one who made inappropriate comments about your family was jj and that was just a couple of weeks ago You`re fair game, because you engage in personal attacks as well.

Oh it's not just Gunnair, we have Useless Machine version 2 now.

jj2424 jj2424:

pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot
...
pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot pot

your kids must be proud of their daddy.

Then there's yourself. You could discuss our topic, or take us down one of these rabbit holes of yours, spell it "dum phuk", that's always good for a laugh.

[jj2424]

Edited for stupidity.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

or take us down one of these rabbit holes of yours

You seem fairly familiar with inserting your head in holes....especially your own.