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Sheesh, the love it or leave it thing has to be the most fundamentally childish thinking there can be. Can't have an argument at all without the chest thumping "get the fuck out" mantra.

Fortunately for me it isn't the 19th century, because you would likely have me executed for treason for my insolence.

No love it or leave it here. Love it or try to change it is fine by me. Once you're here that is. If you're trying to get here... pick somewhere else if this isn't good enough.

Take the oath because that's what the custom and the constitution say you must do to prove your loyalty to the country you wish to call home. After that, feel free to try to change that requirement if you feel that's i the best interests of the country. \

You don't have to agree that the Queen symbolizes Canada, you just have to acknowledge that she is seen as such by the public at large, and that an oath of loyalty is meant to show that public how you feel about this country.

I think a decent analogy might be an engagement ring. You can think that buying a diamond to show your love is stupid all you want, but if the girl you want thinks it's important, you have to choose between doing that stupid thing or finding another girl.

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[Gunnair]

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Gunnair Gunnair:

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Why the god damn symbols??

You have a hammer and sickle in your avatar...again.

Yeah, but I made this one, and you aren't being forced to like it at threat of "getting the fuck out". It is a symbol only I respect; I have no expectations of it being respected by anyone else.

No...you've borrowed it. It is important to you.

So clearly symbols have value. You ought to try harder to see that value of symbols doesn't end at your discretion.

[Canadian_Mind]

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Why have a convoluted and misleading oath to a bunch of symbols if we don't really care about any of the symbols other than that they represent law and authority? Why not do away with the magic and just get a promise to follow the Canadian law?

What I'm saying is, if you threw "your fellow Canadians" and "the land" in there, I'd think it'd be a half-decent oath to be forcing people to take to live here.

Because unfortunately the law is made by corruptible politicians and I don't want anyone swearing loyalty to law. Look at what loyalty to law did to Germany in the 30s and 40s.

Loyalty to goodwill could be an option, but even that can be hard to define if you break it down. I like Unsounds original idea, make it an oath to The Crown.

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I mean it is literally ignored for anything. Math, English, Science all matter in post-secondary. You don't need to do well in Social Studies to become a Social Studies teacher.

It was my favourite class, and I wish it mattered. It matters in my mind, but there's no job that gives a single fuck about it.

Social studies matters if you take history, psychology, anthropology, etc. All subjects I am very interested in.

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Gunnair Gunnair:

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Why the god damn symbols??

You have a hammer and sickle in your avatar...again.

Yeah, but I made this one, and you aren't being forced to like it at threat of "getting the fuck out". It is a symbol only I respect; I have no expectations of it being respected by anyone else.

What if I said I find having to view the hammer and sickle offensive... Just as offensive as these immigrants found the oath to the queen to be? Rightfully you'd tell me to fuck off (I not, then you should) because it's your right to express yourself and my right to leave if I find that offensive... Just as these people have a right to leave if they find the oath offensive.




All this talk about symbols... Written language is all about symbols. clearly they are important or none of use would be communicating this way.

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Gunnair Gunnair:

So clearly symbols have value. You ought to try harder to see that value of symbols doesn't end at your discretion.

Exactly. There is a general consensus that these symbols have significance part of being a member of society is accepting that sometimes you have to bow to the consensus. It's hard to swallow, but there sre some things that you, as an individual, just don't get to decide.

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[Unsound]

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Gunnair Gunnair:

No...you've borrowed it. It is important to you.

So clearly symbols have value. You ought to try harder to see that value of symbols doesn't end at your discretion.

They have value, absolutely. I love symbols. All my art has always been various works of symbols. It is very powerful stuff, flags and symbols.

I don't expect anyone to swear loyalty to any of mine if they call themselves a communist though, because that's dumb, right? If someone doesn't like my symbol, it doesn't automatically mean they don't like communism.

No, but if you start a communists of kelowna club and one of the rules is that you must swear an oath of loyalty to the proletariat in order to join the club... then people can swear the oath or they can not join the club. It's not up to prospective members to decide if it's a stupid rule or not, it's up to them to decide if the club as a whole is cool enough to want to join despite a rule or two that they don't like.

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[Unsound]

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I think a decent analogy might be an engagement ring. You can think that buying a diamond to show your love is stupid all you want, but if the girl you want thinks it's important, you have to choose between doing that stupid thing or finding another girl.

That's good because it's an analogy that is still messed up for me, If a ring is the only thing holding the relationship together, there is no relationship. If she walks because I refuse, she chose the ring and not me. Love me, not the representation.

Or, instead of the ring, we could say marriage itself. If you want the girl you have to marry her whatever your personal opinion of marriage is. If you refuse, is she at fault for choosing a meaningless ceremony over you, or are you at fault for refusing a meaningless ceremony because of a point of principle? And what kind of person are you if you're not willing to respect her feelings on the matter?

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[Unsound]

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I said I have no issues with swearing loyalty to my fellow Canadians. They are what I respect about Canada. Not the flag, not the Queen, not the laws. The people.

So whiel I wouldn't really want to demand people to take an oath, for the purposes of this thread I am down with swearing an oath to the proletariat to join a communist party. I'm okay with swearing an oath to the Canadian people to join Canada.

I would not use my little symbol as a representative for "the proletariat" and demand people swear to it. Or swear to me as "representative". That'd be fucked. Swear loyalty to your fellow man and the land you stand on.

That's just it, the Queen is a symbol of Canada and Canadians. Swearing loyalty to her is the same as swearing loyalty to Canada and Canadians. That's the consensus. That's the way this country and our laws work. You don't have to agree anymore than you have to agree with the law of gravity.

It's our club, and this is the rule that we made. It might seem a little over complicated or convuluted, but it is what it is. If she can be the Queen of England and the completely different entity which is the Queen of Canada, she can also be the canadian people and the canadian land.

AS for respecting your fellow Canadians... have you actually met those pricks?