[ridenrain]

Dayseed Dayseed:

ridenrain ridenrain:

I don't know where you're going with this Dayseed but it's not very convincing.
Sure, we can't tell the whole story from that video but then we're damned lucky we had that video or none of us would even be talking about this now.

Here's where I'm going. You said that the police acted like goons. Are you judging them based on the outcome or on what they perceived as they came to the call? Whether or not you're being equitable or a Monday morning quarterback, which is admittedly at least better than Robair and his Ignorance Crusade, makes a world of difference.

Also, what makes it unconvincing that you're judging them by outcome not perceived situation? I'd like to see your answer to that one too.

Since I assume neither of us were there, both of us acting as Monday morning quarterbacks.

As I said, I'm sure the police had no intention of killing or hurting the guy but they did enter the airport, squabbling over who was going to tazer the guy. I understand that was probably black humor but it did set the tone when 4 trained officers resorted to the tazer almost immediately.

I'm not saying these police are guilty of murder, and they were operating within their training, but they failed to help this man.

[uwish]

good to know clowns like dayseed are cops. I hope he doesn't have this attitude when he is on duty dealing with the public.

Then again, it wouldn't surprise me, small men tend to carry badges.

[Zipperfish]

Nonsense. Cops are the salt of the earth. It feels pretty good to be able to tell my little ones (5 and 3) that if they are ever in trouble they can always trust a policeman or a policelady. I know there's barely a single cop out there who wouldn't put everyhting on the line for them, no matter what.

But, no disrespect intended, cops have to be asnwerable to the public. Killing distarught immigrants for wielding a stapler is simply not on. Nor is putting a bullet into teh back of the head of a guy caught drinking in public. Pile that on repeated episodes of cops covering up the wrongdoing of other cops in BC and you have erosion of public trust.

I think the powers that be--the municipalities, the RCMP brass, need to crack down here in BC anyways.

[RUEZ]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Nor is putting a bullet into teh back of the head of a guy caught drinking in public.

I take it then that you don't believe the police officer when he says he was attacked and shot in self defense?

[Brenda]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Nor is putting a bullet into teh back of the head of a guy caught drinking in public.

I take it then that you don't believe the police officer when he says he was attacked and shot in self defense?

Back of head...

That means he was either not attacked, or too late and the direct threat was gone.

[ridenrain]

I agree with you on this one Brenda.
Difficult to shoot someone in the back of the head when they are strangling you from behind.

I really had high hopes when Harper said he'd reform the RCMP but I guess it's impossible to police the police.

[Dayseed]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Since I assume neither of us were there, both of us acting as Monday morning quarterbacks.

Wrong. The point is that we judge not on what the outcome was, but what they faced going into the airport.

$1:

As I said, I'm sure the police had no intention of killing or hurting the guy but they did enter the airport, squabbling over who was going to tazer the guy. I understand that was probably black humor but it did set the tone when 4 trained officers resorted to the tazer almost immediately.

I'm not saying these police are guilty of murder, and they were operating within their training, but they failed to help this man.

Zipperfish pointed out (I believe it was Zipperfish) that there are studies which show that restrictive compression after tasering can lead to heart complications or even a big old heart attack. That should be looked into as a recovery procedure after a taser shock. So yes, I agree with you that they didn't help the man after they tased him with what he needed, but knowing that restrictive compression could be a problem was beyond them at the time.

[Dayseed]

uwish uwish:

good to know clowns like dayseed are cops. I hope he doesn't have this attitude when he is on duty dealing with the public.

Then again, it wouldn't surprise me, small men tend to carry badges.

Am I accused of being a cop now? It's a refreshing change from accusations of being a Crown Attorney. Sorry to disappoint everybody, but I'm neither.

But, on a happy note, look at what I reduced uwish to! A two-liner ad hominem attack way off topic! Yup, uwish brought his mighty intellect to bear on this one! Is it a clear cut victory for me? The answer is yes to the victory, no the clear-cut. Uwish isn't man enough to admit he was wrong or that his feeble position can't defend against logic, evidence, reason, law, common sense or jurisprudence. So he argues by the faulty premise of abandonment. All of his former posts are abandoned rather than acknowledged as defeated. It's the high mark of a coward. Nobody's fooled that he lost, otherwise, he could easily dismantle my rebuttals.

He didn't. He just pimped away. Take care uwish, I'll be here if you need me!

[Dayseed]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Nonsense. Cops are the salt of the earth. It feels pretty good to be able to tell my little ones (5 and 3) that if they are ever in trouble they can always trust a policeman or a policelady. I know there's barely a single cop out there who wouldn't put everyhting on the line for them, no matter what.

But, no disrespect intended, cops have to be asnwerable to the public. Killing distarught immigrants for wielding a stapler is simply not on. Nor is putting a bullet into teh back of the head of a guy caught drinking in public. Pile that on repeated episodes of cops covering up the wrongdoing of other cops in BC and you have erosion of public trust.

I think the powers that be--the municipalities, the RCMP brass, need to crack down here in BC anyways.

What Canada needs is a Special Investigations Unit like they have in Ontario; an independent body that investigates police-related deaths. If they clear the cops, the public can trust that it isn't some whitewash as if the police had investigated themselves. I agree that people don't tend to trust the police when they're in a conflict of interest; answer to the public about their buddies.

So, nip it in the bud. Then, all of the repeated hooplah that surrounds this stuff will go away. It has in Ontario anyway.

[uwish]

Dayseed Dayseed:

uwish uwish:

good to know clowns like dayseed are cops. I hope he doesn't have this attitude when he is on duty dealing with the public.

Then again, it wouldn't surprise me, small men tend to carry badges.

Am I accused of being a cop now? It's a refreshing change from accusations of being a Crown Attorney. Sorry to disappoint everybody, but I'm neither.

But, on a happy note, look at what I reduced uwish to! A two-liner ad hominem attack way off topic! Yup, uwish brought his mighty intellect to bear on this one! Is it a clear cut victory for me? The answer is yes to the victory, no the clear-cut. Uwish isn't man enough to admit he was wrong or that his feeble position can't defend against logic, evidence, reason, law, common sense or jurisprudence. So he argues by the faulty premise of abandonment. All of his former posts are abandoned rather than acknowledged as defeated. It's the high mark of a coward. Nobody's fooled that he lost, otherwise, he could easily dismantle my rebuttals.

He didn't. He just pimped away. Take care uwish, I'll be here if you need me!

I am not sure what you are talking about.

but while your driveling get me a coffee.

[Zipperfish]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Nor is putting a bullet into teh back of the head of a guy caught drinking in public.

I take it then that you don't believe the police officer when he says he was attacked and shot in self defense?

The story of the officer was not consistent with the evidence. There were a number of irregularities in the detainment of Bush and into the subsequent investigation of his death. So I think it was a whitewash from start to finish.

[Zipperfish]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Zipperfish pointed out (I believe it was Zipperfish) that there are studies which show that restrictive compression after tasering can lead to heart complications or even a big old heart attack. That should be looked into as a recovery procedure after a taser shock. So yes, I agree with you that they didn't help the man after they tased him with what he needed, but knowing that restrictive compression could be a problem was beyond them at the time.

Yeah that was me. It was interesting that the study noted that that these types of in-custody deaths were not peculiar to post-taser incidents. They've been around a long time. Suspects "dog-piled" or otherwise restrained after a long chase, for example, also have been known to suddenly die. The police community has developed the term "excited delirium" to describe this state, though I gather it is not a term generally accepted in the medical community, since it is not well defined.

[ridenrain]

What did they face going into the airport? Those 4 veteran, trained officers faced a frustrated foreign guy who couldn't speak English. They would have known that because the airport staff had been watching him for some 6 hours. Considering he came off a plane into a high security area, they might have even know who he was and where he came from.
For all the cops tried to help, they would have been just as effective to send the dogs in.
I doubt they'd treat a drug addict, mental case, or drunk on the street as poorly as they treated this guy.

These cops screwed up and the whole force is scrambling to cover it up. They even flew to Poland to dig up some dirt about the guys drinking when one of these same officers has since been convicted of drinking & driving. So much for that smear campaign.

[Dayseed]

uwish uwish:

I am not sure what you are talking about.

but while your driveling get me a coffee.

I know you're not sure about that which I talk. That's the constant leitmotif in your posts. You're stupid. You got whooped horribly, completely and all you could do is pimp away with a two sentence rejoinder. Wait, you did it again!

Want more proof of your full-retardedness? Remember when you harped about spelling? You spelled "you're" incorrectly you idiot.

[Dayseed]

ridenrain ridenrain:

What did they face going into the airport?

I don't think you're going to get the next bit correct.

$1:

Those 4 veteran, trained officers faced a frustrated foreign guy who couldn't speak English.

Monday morning quarterbacking. Did anybody tell them he was simply "frustrated" or that he was "violently apeshit"? Afterall, he was throwing tables around, smashing computers et cetera. "Frustrated" is a rationalization of his behaviour based ex post facto. Violently apeshit is what they came upon.

$1:

They would have known that because the airport staff had been watching him for some 6 hours.

When? When was the RCMP to do the interviews with airport staff that had left the immigrant unassisted for hours? I would damn well hope that if they came upon a man trashing the inside of a terminal, they'd get to the immediate problem rather than conducting lengthy interviews. It'd be nice to have a shitload of background info on crazy-man I'd bet, but the police are also paid to keep the peace.

$1:

Considering he came off a plane into a high security area, they might have even know who he was and where he came from.

According to news reports, its the CBSA that let him in the country, not the RCMP. It's unfair to presume that the CBSA came rushing forward with their screwup by the time the RCMP had to intervene. Even afterwards, they did MASSIVE damage control after the RCMP killed him.

$1:

For all the cops tried to help, they would have been just as effective to send the dogs in.

Here's one salient thing that I think got overlooked. Dziekanski was 6'9" tall, huge, violent and not speaking English. They have immediate concerns about their safety; one of them being having crazy-man go apeshit on THEM and not more furniture.

$1:

I doubt they'd treat a drug addict, mental case, or drunk on the street as poorly as they treated this guy.

For all they knew maybe that's what they thought they were dealing with. They'll have to explain all of this at the inquiry.

$1:

These cops screwed up and the whole force is scrambling to cover it up. They even flew to Poland to dig up some dirt about the guys drinking when one of these same officers has since been convicted of drinking & driving. So much for that smear campaign.

I disagree that the cops screwed up, but yup, it sure does seem like the RCMP is responding in such a way as to agree with public perception that they screwed up. I don't know what they hoped to gain with the trip to Poland; even if they found a history of violent episodes with him, they can't introduce that anymore than people can introduce Dziekanski's frustration. They're all ex post facto notions that besmirch fairness.

Ultimately, Dziekanski just isn't the poster child of police brutality, police state or Big Brother that people want him to be. The Toronto Police beating of Jamma Jamma (forgive my spelling) is a much more apt indicator.