[Scape]

[ridenrain]

Definition of the UN.

[ShepherdsDog]

The only thing that most of them are united on is that it's OK to murder their own citizens and that civilized nations owe them something for some reason or another.

[ridenrain]

To condense this down into one theme:

[Thanos]

DerbyX wrote

$1:

Its too bad you don't understand the route of the US involvement in the iraq-iran affair. How did Iran get those f-4s and f-14s anyway? How did Iraq get that US intelligence anyway?

Both the F4 and F14 were well-experienced aircraft by the time of the Iranian Revolution in 1977. The US had sold them to the Shah's air force long before the ayatollahs took over. I think that part of the Iran/Contra scandal during the mid-1980's did involve replacement parts for the F14's going to Iran however.

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

DerbyX wrote

$1:

Its too bad you don't understand the route of the US involvement in the iraq-iran affair. How did Iran get those f-4s and f-14s anyway? How did Iraq get that US intelligence anyway?

Both the F4 and F14 were well-experienced aircraft by the time of the Iranian Revolution in 1977. The US had sold them to the Shah's air force long before the ayatollahs took over. I think that part of the Iran/Contra scandal during the mid-1980's did involve replacement parts for the F14's going to Iran however.

The F-14 was experienced by 1977? Check your facts again, the F-14 was a frontline plane that only entered service with the USN in 1974...

[bootlegga]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

China...3000 years, no colonies or imperial conquests in that time, except constant efforts to keep the nation unified and keep the barbarians out...unless of course you call reabsorbing Tibet (which had been part of China for almost a thousand years prior to the Brits taking it away) conquering.

Your view of Chinese history is a little skewed. It's like saying the Roman Empire never had any territorial ambitions or imperial conquests. What we think of as China, has had a long history of internal strife, with the waxing and waning of her borders, fracturing into multiple warring states, or one faction fighting another for control of their Empire. Saying Chinese is synonymous with saying European, from a religious and ethnic point of view. There is also their attempts to conquer Japan and their conquering of Korea, Eastern Turkmenistan, Mongolia and Manchuria to consider. Most of the nations around the Chinese Empire, that weren't swallowed, were vassal states that paid enormous amounts of tribute to the Son of Heaven.

However, this being said, I have to compare China to Rome once more. Being conquered by China could bring peace and prosperity with the arrival of imperial troops. European, African and Asiatic people welcomed Pax Romana just as the people of eastern Asia welcomed the Chinese version. China's latter stability is also due to its natural fortifications, huge mountain ranges and deserts tended to keep invaders out. What lay to the east of Europe were the steppes that stretched thousands of miles, which allowed any and all peoples with a desire to move west, room to build up speed.

As for Taiwan. It wasn't conquered by anyone, it was ceded by the Chinese to the Japanese in 1895. The Japanese renounced their claim to it in 1952, naming no benefciary. Whether or not it unifies with China is a matter for the Taiwanese people to determine, blood and business are two of the srongest factors within Chinese society. Chinese unity is rooted in their belief of the Middle Kingdom, a view alive and well today.

As for China being communist, I think we can all agree that isn't the case anymore. What we are seeing in China is the resurgence of a Confucian society, authoritarian in nature, but one that operates on WIIFM rather than socialism.

I see Weasel whack job is still a lying piece of shit. I guess it's natural, like when he denies rinsing syringes.

Please check your history book(s) again and find me a reference for a Chinese Empire that extends much past its current borders. Once you do, you'll see that there never was one. Yes, it influenced areas (like Korea or Japan in ancient times or North America today with its exports) and demanded tribute from some, but that was a long time ago, but it never outright conquered Samarkand, Baghdad, Cairo or Kiev, or even established colonies for the sake of expanding its reach. And it could have, because for most of recorded history, it has been the world's most populous and technologically advanced country, nevermind military might (China at its height of power had armies in the hundreds of thousands). It was focussed solely on maintaining its own integrity. I would argue places like Manchuria and the like have been part of China for so long as to be considered China. Arguing over that is like arguing over the Welsh being conquered by the English.

Let's check the West for the same;

France - check
UK - check
USA - check
Spain - check
Belgium - check
Germany - check
Japan - check
Russia - check
Italy - check

My basic point was that China has never had a desire to build a world spanning empire, like Hitler, Mussoini, Napoleon, any number of British PMs and arguably, some US presidents.

China has never given much of a damn what occurred in Europe, Africa or anywhere else and that is reflected in its history. Taiwan had Chinese settlements on it at least 400 years ago, and there might have even been smaller ones that were abandoned as far back as 200 AD, but that hasn't been proven definitively yet.

I totally agree with your assessment of a modern Confucian China emerging, but try to get someone like RR to understand that. All he sees is red, so it's automatically Communist and a target of disdain, regardless of how it really is.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

For all the deference to history, you missed the most recent.
Does the US own Cuban?
Does the US own the Philipines?


Did all the people who advovated "free Tibet" miss the slow boat to China too?

Tell me, how did that Cuba thing work out?

Oh yeah, Cubans kicked out the US supported dictator and the US has been pouting about it ever since, with assassination attempts, embargoes and other dirty tricks. Yeah, Cuba is an excellent example of the US forgoing imperialism. What's next, a comparison of France and Vietnam?

Got any other brilliant gems?

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Please check your history book(s) again and find me a reference for a Chinese Empire that extends much past its current borders. Once you do, you'll see that there never was one.

There never was a Chinese Empire. Well I guess Europe was just a greater Italy the, under Rome. Viewing China as a homogenous political and ethnic entity is like viewing Europe in the same way.

$1:

My basic point was that China has never had a desire to build a world spanning empire

You ever hear of Middle Kingdom Syndrome, or wonder why China refers to itself as the Middle Kingdom. All the world was expected to pay homage to the Son of Heaven. Chinese rulers established an effective system of governing their vassals. As long as tribute was sent, local governance was allowed. The voyages of Zheng He in the 15th century for example:

$1:

Emperor Yongle designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, and impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin. He also might have wanted to extend the tributary system, by which Chinese dynasties traditionally recognized foreign peoples.

The Chinese never were one for mingling with others, which is evident even today. For the most part, colonial empires didn't fit into the Chinese mindset, as they already held one of the world's largest Empires, populated by 'Chinese' people. Why would the Han and their related people want to live amongst barbarians?

However all this being said we can see how China has had it's territorial expansions at the expense of its neighbours:

The Zhou Dynasty, where there were several 'Chinese' kingdoms during the warring states period.



The Qin Dynasty



The Ming dynasty



until the Qing dynasty which ended in 1911



However, it was under the Yuan Dynasty(the Mongols) that 'China' exerted its greatest influence. It attempted to invade Japan.


Going back to Zheng He and the Ming last of the Yuan, it is interesting that in the 15th century, China was the most technologically advanced society on the planet. Yet one man, Xuande, and his handful of advisors shut it all down and shut China off from the rest of the world. Chinese ships sailed the world's oceans, Chinese colonies were planted throughout the East and as far west as the ME. It went from being a Dragon to the kick ball of the rest of the world for almost 500 years. What would the world have been like if Xuande had not turned China into a hermit?

[bootlegga]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

There never was a Chinese Empire. Well I guess Europe was just a greater Italy the, under Rome. Viewing China as a homogenous political and ethnic entity is like viewing Europe in the same way.

The key difference is that Korea was never a province of china, while Gaul was a province of Rome. You may think it's a minor distinction, but to me, it's like the difference between being part of the British Empire and being Canada. In one case, we chose who we go to war with and another we don't.

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

You ever hear of Middle Kingdom Syndrome, or wonder why China refers to itself as the Middle Kingdom. All the world was expected to pay homage to the Son of Heaven. Chinese rulers established an effective system of governing their vassals. As long as tribute was sent, local governance was allowed. The voyages of Zheng He in the 15th century for example:

$1:

Emperor Yongle designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, and impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin. He also might have wanted to extend the tributary system, by which Chinese dynasties traditionally recognized foreign peoples.

The Chinese never were one for mingling with others, which is evident even today. For the most part, colonial empires didn't fit into the Chinese mindset, as they already held one of the world's largest Empires, populated by 'Chinese' people. Why would the Han and their related people want to live amongst barbarians?

Paying tribute is far different than being amalgamated into one's empire. Tell me, would you have preferred paying some money to Hitler or actually being under his boot heel? I know which option I prefer...

I well aware of the Middle Kingdom mindset, which when all is said and done is basically, we're the best and no one else matters. It's hardly a unique viewpoint. Look at the British absolutely believed in their superiority over pretyy much everyone else, Western Europeans and their drive to educate the noble savage in the 19th century, or even the Americans chanting U-S-A and #1 at world championships events (no matter the sport). Pretty much everyone thinks they are better than everyone else. In fact, Canada meekness and unwillingness to boast is the unique POV, not China's.

And yes, Zheng He's fleets did travel widely, but while they received gifts, they also carried gifts to foreign nations and the combination of expensive gifts and huge fleets almost bankrupted China. That is almost certainly one of the reasons China became isolationist in 1500s.

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

However all this being said we can see how China has had it's territorial expansions at the expense of its neighbours:

The Zhou Dynasty, where there were several 'Chinese' kingdoms during the warring states period.

The Qin Dynasty

The Ming dynasty

until the Qing dynasty which ended in 1911

However, it was under the Yuan Dynasty(the Mongols) that 'China' exerted its greatest influence. It attempted to invade Japan.

Going back to Zheng He and the Ming last of the Yuan, it is interesting that in the 15th century, China was the most technologically advanced society on the planet. Yet one man, Xuande, and his handful of advisors shut it all down and shut China off from the rest of the world. Chinese ships sailed the world's oceans, Chinese colonies were planted throughout the East and as far west as the ME. It went from being a Dragon to the kick ball of the rest of the world for almost 500 years. What would the world have been like if Xuande had not turned China into a hermit?

I would hardly call the Mongol Empire a Chinese one. It might have had it's HQ there, but that didn't make it Chinese. Genghis Khan and his successors were from a foreign nation and usurped the throne. The Qin empire is over 2000 years old, so that's hardly relevant IMO. Like I said, we might as well start debating about who owns the British Isles...the Italians? The Celts? The Anglo-Saxons? How far back do you want to go?

I've actually read a lot on Zheng He, mostly because years ago I thought, wouldn't a great story be one of a divided New World, held in the East by the Europeans, and in the West by Asians? About 2 years ago I stumbled onto 1421 by Gavin Menzies and he showed that my day dreaming might have been possible.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

The key difference is that Korea was never a province of china, while Gaul was a province of Rome. You may think it's a minor distinction, but to me, it's like the difference between being part of the British Empire and being Canada

Using your own examples and distinctions I could argue that Wales is and always has been an indepent sovereign principality from England. The same goes for Scotland, Ulster and Eire.

As for time...look at a lot of the claims that the Chinese are putting forward in the South China Sea, around the Spratley's.

$1:

Paying tribute is far different than being amalgamated into one's empire.

Well lets take a more modern view of events when it comes to Chinese vassals. Vietnam overthrew the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, a Chinese client, and how did the Chinese react? They invaded Vietnam. A better example is the Chinese involvement in the Korean conflict. They saw this as an incursion into a Chinese area. Korea has always been China's Wales, except when the Japanese showed an interest in things.

The Chinese are as hung up on land, the Motherland, that was theirs 2 000 years ago as they are in land that was theirs 200 yrs. ago.

$1:

Like I said, we might as well start debating about who owns the British Isles...the Italians? The Celts? The Anglo-Saxons? How far back do you want to go?

Yet you use this same approach to justify the Chinese claims to Tibet, Xinjiang(eastern Turkistan) and Taiwan.

[bootlegga]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Using your own examples and distinctions I could argue that Wales is and always has been an indepent sovereign principality from England. The same goes for Scotland, Ulster and Eire.

As for time...look at a lot of the claims that the Chinese are putting forward in the South China Sea, around the Spratley's.

Wales isn't the same at all, simply because when the English go to war, so do the Welsh, the Scots and everyone else in Britain. Imagine for a second if the Scots said they weren't interested in fighting. What kind of uproar would that cause in Britain? However, if Qing China fought a war, Korea was not automatically drafted into the fight (like we were as a part of the British Empire in WW1).

The Spratleys are claimed by every country in the region, so to me that's a non-issue. Even tiny Brunei has claims on part of it. Just because a nation has a territorial claim doesn't make it expansionist. Canada has claims all over the Arctic with half a dozen other nations. Are we expansionist or just worried about keeping what's ours?

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Well lets take a more modern view of events when it comes to Chinese vassals. Vietnam overthrew the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, a Chinese client, and how did the Chinese react? They invaded Vietnam. A better example is the Chinese involvement in the Korean conflict. They saw this as an incursion into a Chinese area. Korea has always been China's Wales, except when the Japanese showed an interest in things.

The Chinese are as hung up on land, the Motherland, that was theirs 2 000 years ago as they are in land that was theirs 200 yrs. ago.

China entered the Korean conflict for the same reason the Americans tried to invade Cuba after Castro took over. It saw a threat (MacArthur wanted to keep going past the Yalu River right into China; he even rumoured to have advocated the use of nukes) to its national security and it reacted. If you condemn the Chinese, then you also have to condemn the Americans (who have invaded as many or more countries in our own hemisphere when they saw a threat, real or imagined). Grenada and Panama for example are even more recent than China's short war with Vietnam.

I'm not saying that it's right for either nation to act so, but you have to criticize all nations that do such things, not just the Commie ones, which is what many right-leaning members here do. They ignore the US bullying and invading anyone they choose, but those damned North Koreans/Chinese/whomever better not do the exact same thing. I'm not saying you are one of them, but I'm sure you know who I'm talking about...

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Yet you use this same approach to justify the Chinese claims to Tibet, Xinjiang(eastern Turkistan) and Taiwan.

Given that the British live in Britain, I'm inclined to support their claims that they own it.

Given that Chinese people (from China, not descendants, but real Han) live in Xinjiang, Tibet and even Taiwan, I'm inclined to say they are Chinese. Even Taiwan, which for a while appeared to be moving away from China, is now headed back into its arms, talking about economic agreements and maybe even closer relations. You can argue all you want for Taiwan to separate, but you are conveniently forgetting that even Chiang Kai-Shek considered there to be only one China, the Republic of China, with the Communists as usurpers to the throne. He had hoped for enough American backing to go back and take control of China. Had he done so, I can pretty much guarantee that Taiwan would be considered part of China today.