[xerxes]

martin14 martin14:

xerxes xerxes:

It wouldn't. but Republicans wouldn't win races anywhere nears as much under a fair system.

Ahh so you are quite happy to admit the voting system is being played with,
it's just your normal left wing delusions that only Republicans do it;
the Democrats are as pure as the driven snow.

ok.

The Democrats have come a long from way from the election shenanigans of the '60's and 70's and the days of machine politics.

But it's not the Democrats who, in NC, passed voter Id laws and other restrictions that were overturned by the courts as having been "surgically designed to disenfranchise as many African-American voters as possible"

It's not the Democrats in Alabama who passed a voter ID laws requiring driver's licenses and then promptly closed every DMV in democratic districts.....

[Zipperfish]

Given that the Trump supporters don't believe what they see with their own two eyes, I don't expect much to come from a Trump controlled investigation into fraud.

I mean there's two pictures of the inaugurations of Obama in 2009 and Trump in 2017, side by side, showing much larger crowds at the Obama inauguration and yet this ceases to even register. They look at it and say "No Trump's is bigger."

People that removed from reality shouldn't have a say in anything.

[xerxes]

$1:

People that removed from reality shouldn't have a say in anything.

Yet, they now are the executive in the White House...

[PluggyRug]

xerxes xerxes:

$1:

People that removed from reality shouldn't have a say in anything.

Yet, they now are the executive in the White House...

...replacing the former executive to whom reality was only to be found in the MSM.

[xerxes]

...Which is actually based on facts and reality, unlike Trump's facts, which come from his delusions or Bannon's diseased mind.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

People that removed from reality shouldn't have a say in anything.

It's attitudes like this that got Trump elected. People far less reasonable than you're being here are just ITCHING to disenfranchise conservatives and we've fucking had it.

If the left wants a confrontation over all of this then they picked a bad time because the guy in the White Hut doesn't give a fuck. The leftards in the so-called 'sanctuary cities' are discovering that their virtue signaling and conservative shaming tactics don't work on Trump. He's starting by cutting off their Federal funds because they flout Federal immigration law and you wait, he'll go after them on the vote, too.

Look for the Congress to pass laws on voter ID and vote integrity and don't be surprised if they go so far as to enshrine those laws as a Constitutional Amendment so the next liberal can't undo or ignore them.

It also won't surprise me if Trump has the mayors and governors who conspire to harbor illegal aliens prosecuted under the numerous Federal laws that much such crimes felony behavior.

And I hope they all look in the mirror when they ask how this all came about.

The left pushed too far and now we're pushing back.

Now sit back and watch the UK and France go right this year.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

It's attitudes like this that got Trump elected. People far less reasonable than you're being here are just ITCHING to disenfranchise conservatives and we've fucking had it.

If the left wants a confrontation over all of this then they picked a bad time because the guy in the White Hut doesn't give a fuck. The leftards in the so-called 'sanctuary cities' are discovering that their virtue signaling and conservative shaming tactics don't work on Trump. He's starting by cutting off their Federal funds because they flout Federal immigration law and you wait, he'll go after them on the vote, too.

Look for the Congress to pass laws on voter ID and vote integrity and don't be surprised if they go so far as to enshrine those laws as a Constitutional Amendment so the next liberal can't undo or ignore them.

It also won't surprise me if Trump has the mayors and governors who conspire to harbor illegal aliens prosecuted under the numerous Federal laws that much such crimes felony behavior.

And I hope they all look in the mirror when they ask how this all came about.

The left pushed too far and now we're pushing back.

Now sit back and watch the UK and France go right this year.

Well I don't think the alt-right are conservatives. They are radical, which is the opposite of conservative. But that's a niggling detail.

I do agree that we are likely going to see a sudden shift to the right across North America and Europe bordering on the revolutionary. That is what the left doesn't understand. They are all "We are going to resist! We are going to rebel!" The resistance already started. The rebellion is underway. But it isn't on the left. It's on the right. It was conceived with Reagan, carried through to Sarah Palin, and Trump is its pre-revolutionary manifestation.

[fifeboy]

Khar Khar:

She could vote, but she likely wouldn’t. For the record, she could have a driver’s licence as well, or several other forms of government issued ID (many of them with photos) from the Canadian government, without actually being Canadian. It’s why we ask people if they are Canadian citizens at the polls and impose stiff fines if someone votes who should not – because it’s incredibly difficult to demand all voters prove their citizenship at the poll to a bunch of people who got three hours training max on how to do their job and who aren’t government employees. However, suspected cases can still be tracked and investigated when needed. American systems and most other systems worldwide, unless you require the use of your passport or birth certificate or something similar, would have similar pitfalls.

The aim is to provide the capacity to investigate and punish where necessary. Demanding increasing levels of ID and security literally only makes it harder to vote in the status quo. As I’ve pointed out before, even with the American system, any credible study done by pretty much any source has consistently failed to find more than a handful of cases of voter fraud, something you still haven’t replied to, and a definite pre-requisite to any sort of corrective action. Any effort by Trump using any reliable research apparatus or method will likely turn up the exact same result.

The problems pointed to by Bart and by his articles within this thread use the more common perceived issue with the system, relating to voter rolls not being up to date. Most allegations of voter fraud have directly related to this kind of issue, and our system is set-up specifically to handle that by tracking voters and actively working to remove old records where possible and necessary. As an aside, the current apparatus also makes it much easier for those with citizenship to vote, because it’s easier to track where they live and instantly register them come election time.

We have a system in place where we register and re-register the majority of residents within each riding before election day even comes, so we easily cross-reference most people in the system. A lot of our information comes from existing government lists or registrars, including the folks who you pay your taxes to (there’s even a box on it that allows you to be registered, and most accountants select that for you unless you direct them otherwise). We track who has voted and who moved where, and have used the same database for several elections now; I moved some people who had moved a few times and had a record of all those prior moves, and why.

On removals; if you look up an address, there are few names associated with it because all I need to remove someone from the list is someone, with ID and proof of residence, telling me someone else no longer lives there. All this is coded into the system to make it easily traceable.

The primary role of ID has always been to identify where someone lives and to ensure they vote once in that riding. By having someone’s name and address from a recognized institution which requires a legitimate home address (health authorities, banks, utility bills, universities, and government offices) it proves that they do live in that location. All information used on polling day to register gets put into the system, and, yes, people do get caught if they tried to vote in more than one riding, because for the purposes of the election we list everyone who is voted (we then remove the names of those who don’t want to be on the register for the next election, often out of privacy concerns).

For the record, the UK also allows you to vote with something like a utility bill. In Germany you only need your polling notification, much like Switzerland. In Ireland you can use your bank books, your credit cards, etc. Denmark still doesn’t even require ID. Those that do require more provide them automatically to citizens, such as Spain, Greece, France, Malta, Belgium, and so forth. So yes, “try to get anything done in Europe without government issued ID” and, in the case of voting, it’s fine in a lot of cases. It’s also a lot easier when ID is much easier to provide. These “way too trusting” systems continue to have very low levels of voter fraud.

When you say “most US states” then you know that, even at the most basic level, my arguments hold water. It’s also a combination of factors that you are not talking about here; first, that in many cases ID (such as state college ID) are not accepted when other forms of ID are (such as closed carry cards), making an additional barrier for certain citizens. To get a new ID in Texas if your old one has experienced requires something like your birth certificate; if you got married or your parents did since you were born and your name changed, it’s a $250 fee to get the information you need, for example, because your birth certificate is no longer correct. The elderly, who are less likely to have those documents, and the poor, or those who were victims of national disasters that ruined their homes (hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, fires, etc) are all somewhat disenfranchised and have to spend a fair chunk of money to get IDs (which, after a quick google search, run at minimum between 28-52 dollars depending on what the card is being used for).

Even in states like Wisconsin, where they will provide you a free ID card for the purposes of voting (reflecting that no one should have to pay a de facto tax to vote), what you need to get to obtain that card, if you don’t have it, can easily cost hundreds of dollars. Again, it’s a situation where the Canadian (or European) system is better, where IDs are easier to obtain, and government bodies are able to provide that information on a quicker basis.

I don’t think this is a problem with the voting system, however. I don’t think we should change the voting system to reflect that. I think we need to change the ID system in the States to reflect the needs of the people and, if that’s not possible, make use of the bevy of other forms of ID that are usable. Much like Canada’s system, which allows a broader array of access

Non-citizens already hold many forms of what you woul
likely consider acceptable ID, and many of them are in the US legally.

Thank you for an enlightening summery of our voting procedures. I have worked the polls myself, but it was as a party scrutineer in a small town where everyone knew everyone. Thanks!

[BartSimpson]

The left is already starting to cave on their 'principled' view on sanctuary for illegal aliens:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 84759.html

Miami-Dade mayor orders jails to comply with Trump crackdown on ‘sanctuary’ counties

[Thanos]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Well I don't think the alt-right are conservatives. They are radical, which is the opposite of conservative. But that's a niggling detail.

I'm not sure anymore that conservatism ever really existed. Not when, going back to Thatcher anyway, it's been a wholesale abandonment of what conservative parties used to say they believed in and a full-scale embracing of whatever angry populist muck is trending at the time.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Well I don't think the alt-right are conservatives. They are radical, which is the opposite of conservative. But that's a niggling detail.

'alt right' as it is being painted in the media is a hugely broad term that's mostly used as an epithet. And it's fallen just as flat as 'deplorable' did because now you've got people out there who are disappointed if you don't think they're 'alt right'. No doubt some bunch of college kids are calling themselves 'alt right' just to piss off their parents.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I do agree that we are likely going to see a sudden shift to the right across North America and Europe bordering on the revolutionary. That is what the left doesn't understand. They are all "We are going to resist! We are going to rebel!" The resistance already started. The rebellion is underway. But it isn't on the left. It's on the right. It was conceived with Reagan, carried through to Sarah Palin, and Trump is its pre-revolutionary manifestation.

I agree with what you're saying about Trump. Trump is the right-wing John the Baptist preparing the way for whatever the hell is coming next.

The fuck of it now is that the radical left doesn't realize how much they're doing to enable the ascendancy of s/he who comes after Trump.

[Thanos]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I agree with what you're saying about Trump. Trump is the right-wing John the Baptist preparing the way for whatever the hell is coming next.....

Ah, who cares anyway. I'm out of fucks to give anymore.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

'alt right' as it is being painted in the media is a hugely broad term that's mostly used as an epithet. And it's fallen just as flat as 'deplorable' did because now you've got people out there who are disappointed if you don't think they're 'alt right'. No doubt some bunch of college kids are calling themselves 'alt right' just to piss off their parents.

It's a name. Call it what you like, but it ain't conservatism. I think it's kind of proto-fascism--authoritarian, nationalistic, seeking to blame some identifiable internal group as enemies of the state. The idea that the media should not oppose the state. And the strong scent of violence just in the offing.

$1:

I agree with what you're saying about Trump. Trump is the right-wing John the Baptist preparing the way for whatever the hell is coming next.

The fuck of it now is that the radical left doesn't realize how much they're doing to enable the ascendancy of s/he who comes after Trump.

The left, as a whole, doesn't know what to do now. They are completely stunned. They can't decide whether to shit or go blind. Their system is crumbling around them.

[Zipperfish]

Thanos Thanos:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Well I don't think the alt-right are conservatives. They are radical, which is the opposite of conservative. But that's a niggling detail.

I'm not sure anymore that conservatism ever really existed. Not when, going back to Thatcher anyway, it's been a wholesale abandonment of what conservative parties used to say they believed in and a full-scale embracing of whatever angry populist muck is trending at the time.

Prorgressive was the way things were going from FDR's New Deal forward. The Conservatives of that era sought to conserve the values of the old ways against the progressives. Reagan and Thatcher marked the pendulum swinging the other way, against the so-called "progressive agenda." That has accelerated ever since and now it is the left that seeks to maintain the status quo and the right that wants change. IN my opinion anyway.

[xerxes]

Just as the right has gone far to the right, so too will the left. There will be barely any ground left for centrists anymore if any.