[N_Fiddledog]

So if this change is not about the long form census being made mandatory why do we need it?

There was always an option to complete the long form.

Here's somebody from back in 2010 suggesting the Libertarian solution to Harper taking away the mandatory requirement would be to do the long form anyway.

A libertarian solution to the census debacle

Here is the short form for 2016. The short form has always been mandatory.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-rece ... ns-eng.cfm

Here is the long form for 2016. In 2011 the long form was optional. The only thing that is changing is that it is now mandatory.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/201 ... ns-eng.cfm

So what do they mean by mandatory?

$1:

Citizens who refuse to participate in providing information, or who provide false information, have committed an offence under the Statistics Act under c. S-19:

...information collected under the authority of the Statistics Act, R.S.C. 1985...and must be provided by law.

Refusal to provide information: ...are liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars or/and to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_Act

So the only thing that has changed is the long form in now mandatory. Mandatory has to mean if you do not comply there is a penalty. The penalty by law is a fine not exceeding $500 or up to 3 months in jail.

That's just fact.

If you want that you're not a libertarian Lemmy. That is also a fact.

[Lemmy]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

So if this change is not about the long form census being made mandatory why do we need it?

Need which? The long form census or a change in law to make it mandatory? I already told you why we need the census. I would say we don't need a change in law to make it an offence to refuse. I have an idea why it is though...

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

There was always an option to complete the long form.

Yeah? So?

Fiddly Fiddly:

Here's somebody from back in 2010 suggesting the Libertarian solution to Harper taking away the mandatory requirement would be to do the long form anyway.

A libertarian solution to the census debacle

Whippin' it out, eh? The REAL libertarians' bible. The last question asked was "Are Canadians upset enough over this issue to act?" The answer is "No". Nobody gives a shit. This is a stupid fight to make. Just fill out the fucking census. Not for some perverse protest. Fill it out out of a sense of civic duty. Just fucking suck it up and do it...and get off your lazy ass and shovel your sidewalk when it snows too.

Fiddly Fiddly:

Here is the short form for 2016. The short form has always been mandatory.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-rece ... ns-eng.cfm

Here is the long form for 2016. In 2011 the long form was optional. The only thing that is changing is that it is now mandatory.

Okay. And? So what?

Fiddly Fiddly:

So what do they mean by mandatory?

I presume they mean they'd attach some potential penalty for non-compliance when they author the statute. Again, so?

Fiddly Fiddly:

So the only thing that has changed is the long form in now mandatory. Mandatory has to mean if you do not comply there is a penalty. The penalty by law is a fine not exceeding $500 or up to 3 months in jail.

That's just fact.

So if that's the maximum, $500 or 3 months, what do you figure would be the usual sentence? Presuming, that is, anyone was actually charged, let alone sentenced to anything more severe than a slap on the wrist?

The purpose of a law requiring compliance is to coax people into doing it. Most people want to obey the law. So if you make it an offence to refuse, a good chuck of the population will feel they should. Your average-Joe doesn't want to pay a $500 fine. Making refusal an offence expresses the importance society places on collecting this data. Is that a great tactic? No, it's not the way I'd go about it. I'd use positive incentive, like a Tim Horton's gift certificate for filling out the form, but that's what it is. Again, get back to me when someone actually gets sentenced for this offence and I'll be outraged if the punishment is outrage-worthy.

Fiddly Fiddly:

If you want that you're not a libertarian Lemmy. That is also a fact.

Putting words in my mouth again to stuff that strawman of yours. Who said I'd want that? I never said I'd want it. I did say I don't want it (scroll up a few posts). I explicitly stated that I wouldn't penalize people for non-compliance. Remember?:

Lemmy Lemmy:

I wouldn't penalize anyone for refusing, but I'd tell them they're selfish pricks, just like the assholes who refuse to shovel the sidewalks in front of their houses or whip coffee cups out the goddamn car window. It's the very same "me first, fuck everyone else" mentality.

I'd prefer to market it to people so they understand why collecting the data is important and make it voluntary. Voluntary but strongly encouraged. "Be a good neighbour and help us keep a record of our population statistics to hand down to our grandchildren." Something like that. Remember the "Be nice, clear your ice"-thing? A friendly reminder. Moral suasion. Did anyone ever get thrown in the slammer for not shoveling their walkway?

Off topic, Fiddly, but what does your Libertarians' Quran tell you about R.I.D.E. programs. Should they be allowed?

[N_Fiddledog]

The only change is that the long form is now mandatory.

There has always been a penalty that can include jail. It now covers the long form as well as the short.

Under the conservatives an old lady was charged for refusing to complete the short form. She got 50 days of community service. I think she was 70 something.

What a liberal regime will be using as punishment for those who don't march to their new drum is anybody's guess, and they're not saying, but jail is possible and Navdeep says "The law is the law."

But here is what we are told is the Libertarian response to the news that a more intrusive census is now mandatory (as in jail is possible).

Liberals to restore mandatory long-form census

Lemmy Lemmy:

x 2 |

[N_Fiddledog]

Gee, that's odd I just clicked that long form census link and it was dead now.

I found it though. Here's what's on the long that wasn't on the short.

$1:

ACTIVITIES OF DAILY LIVING

The following question is about difficulties a person may have doing certain activities. Only difficulties or long-term conditions that have lasted or are expected to last for six months or more should be considered.

STEP E - Question identifier 11: Does this person have any:
a) difficulty seeing (even when wearing glasses or contact lenses)?

1: No
2: Sometimes
3: Often
4: Always
b) difficulty hearing (even when using a hearing aid)?

1: No
2: Sometimes
3: Often
4: Always
c) difficulty walking, using stairs, using his/her hands or fingers or doing other physical activities?

1: No
2: Sometimes
3: Often
4: Always
d) difficulty learning, remembering or concentrating?

1: No
2: Sometimes
3: Often
4: Always
e) emotional, psychological or mental health conditions (e.g., anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, substance abuse, anorexia, etc.)?

1: No
2: Sometimes
3: Often
4: Always
f) other health problem or long-term condition that has lasted or is expected to last for six months or more?

Exclude: any health problems previously reported above.

1: No
2: Sometimes
3: Often
4: Always
SOCIOCULTURAL INFORMATION

STEP E - Question identifier 12: Where was this person born?

Specify one response only, according to present boundaries.

Born in Canada
1: Nfld. Lab.
2: P.E.I.
3: N.S.
4: N.B.
5: Quebec
6: Ontario
7: Manitoba
8: Sask.
9: Alberta
10: B.C.
11: Yukon
12: N.W.T.
13: Nunavut
Born outside Canada
14: specify country
STEP E - Question identifier 13: Of what country is this person a citizen?

Indicate more than one citizenship, if applicable.

"Canada, by naturalization" refers to the process by which an immigrant is granted citizenship of Canada, under the Citizenship Act.

1: Canada, by birth
2: Canada, by naturalization
3: Other country — specify
STEP E - Question identifier 14: Is this person now, or has this person ever been, a landed immigrant?

A "landed immigrant" (permanent resident) is a person who has been granted the right to live in Canada permanently by immigration authorities.

1: No. Go to question 16.
2: Yes
STEP E - Question identifier 15: In what year did this person first become a landed immigrant?

Example: Year 1974

1: Year. If exact year is not known, enter best estimate.
STEP E - Question identifier 16: What language(s), other than English or French, can this person speak well enough to conduct a conversation?

1: None; OR
2: Other language(s) — specify
This question collects information on the ancestral origins of the population and provides information about the composition of Canada's diverse population.

STEP E - Question identifier 17: What were the ethnic or cultural origins of this person's ancestors?

An ancestor is usually more distant than a grandparent.

For example, Canadian, English, Chinese, French, East Indian, Italian, German, Scottish, Cree, Mi'kmaq, Salish, Métis, Inuit, Filipino, Irish, Dutch, Ukrainian, Polish, Portuguese, Vietnamese, Korean, Jamaican, Greek, Iranian, Lebanese, Mexican, Somali, Colombian, etc.

1: Specify as many origins as applicable using capital letters.
STEP E - Question identifier 18: Is this person an Aboriginal person, that is, First Nations (North American Indian), Métis or Inuk (Inuit)?

Note: First Nations (North American Indian) includes Status and Non-Status Indians.

If "Yes", mark the circle(s) that best describe(s) this person now.

1: No, not an Aboriginal person. Continue with the next question.
2: Yes, First Nations (North American Indian). Go to question 20.
3: Yes, Métis. Go to question 20.
4: Yes, Inuk (Inuit). Go to question 20.
This question collects information in accordance with the Employment Equity Act and its Regulations and Guidelines to support programs that promote equal opportunity for everyone to share in the social, cultural, and economic life of Canada.

STEP E - Question identifier 19: Is this person:

Mark more than one circle or specify, if applicable.

1: White
2: South Asian (e.g., East Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, etc.)
3: Chinese
5: Black
6: Filipino
7: Latin American
8: Arab
9: Southeast Asian (e.g., Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Thai, etc.)
10: West Asian (e.g., Iranian, Afghan, etc.)
11: Korean
12: Japanese
13: Other — specify
STEP E - Question identifier 20: Is this person a Status Indian (Registered or Treaty Indian as defined by the Indian Act of Canada)?

1: No
2: Yes, Status Indian (Registered or Treaty)
STEP E - Question identifier 21: Is this person a member of a First Nation/Indian band?

If " Yes ", which First Nation/Indian band?

For example, Musqueam Indian Band, Sturgeon Lake First Nation, Atikamekw of Manawan.

1: No
2: Yes, member of a First Nation/Indian band. Specify name of First Nation/Indian Band.
MOBILITY

STEP E - Question identifier 22: Where did this person live 1 year ago, that is, on May 10, 2015?

Mark one circle only.

Note: For those who mark the fourth circle: Please give the name of the city or town rather than the metropolitan area of which it is a part.

For example:

Saanich rather than Victoria (metropolitan area);
St. Albert rather than Edmonton (metropolitan area);
Laval rather than Montréal (metropolitan area).
1: Born after May 10, 2015
2: Lived at the same address as now
3: Lived at a different address in the same city, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve
4: Lived in a different city, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve in Canada. Specify the name of the city, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve of residence 1 year ago. Province/territory. Postal code.
5: Lived outside Canada. Specify the country of residence 1 year ago.
STEP E - Question identifier 23: Where did this person live 5 years ago, that is, on May 10, 2011?

Mark one circle only.

Note: For those who mark the fourth circle: Please give the name of the city or town rather than the metropolitan area of which it is a part.

For example:

Saanich rather than Victoria (metropolitan area);
St. Albert rather than Edmonton (metropolitan area);
Laval rather than Montréal (metropolitan area).
1: Born after May 10, 2011
2: Lived at the same address as now
3: Lived at a different address in the same city, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve
4: Lived in a different city, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve in Canada. Specify the name of the city, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve of residence 5 years ago. Province/territory. Postal code.
5: Lived outside Canada. Specify the country of residence 5 years ago.
PLACE OF BIRTH OF PARENTS

STEP E - Question identifier 24: Where was each of this person's parents born?

a) Father

Mark or specify country according to present boundaries.

1: Born in Canada
2: Born outside Canada — specify country
b) Mother

Mark or specify country according to present boundaries.

1: Born in Canada
2: Born outside Canada — specify country
Answer questions 25 to 49 for each person aged 15 years and over.

Continue only for each person aged 15 years and over (born before May 10, 2001).

EDUCATION

STEP E - Question identifier 25: Has this person completed a high school (secondary school) diploma or equivalent?

Examples of high school equivalency certificates are General Educational Development (GED) and Adult Basic Education (ABE).

1: Yes, high school diploma
2: Yes, high school equivalency certificate
3: No
STEP E - Question identifier 26: a) Has this person completed a Registered Apprenticeship or other trades certificate or diploma?

Mark as many circles as applicable.

For example, hairstyling, cooking, electrician, carpentry, etc.

1: Yes, Certificate of Apprenticeship or Certificate of Qualification (Journeyperson's designation)
2: Yes, other trades certificate or diploma
3: No
b) Has this person completed a college, CEGEP or other non-university certificate or diploma?

Exclude: any certificates or diplomas reported in question 26 a).

Mark as many circles as applicable.

For example, accounting technology, industrial engineering technology, legal assistant, etc.

1: Yes, certificate or diploma from a program of less than 3 months
2: Yes, certificate or diploma from a program of 3 months to less than 1 year
3: Yes, certificate or diploma from a program of 1 year to 2 years
4: Yes, certificate or diploma from a program of more than 2 years
5: No
c) Has this person completed a university certificate, diploma or degree?

Mark as many circles as applicable.

1: Yes, university certificate or diploma below bachelor level
2: Yes, bachelor's degree (e.g., B.A., B.A. (Hons.), B.Sc., B.Ed., LL.B.)
3: Yes, university certificate or diploma above bachelor level
4: Yes, degree in medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine or optometry (M.D., D.D.S., D.M.D., D.V.M., O.D.)
5: Yes, master's degree (e.g., M.A., M.Sc., M.Ed., M.B.A.)
6: Yes, earned doctorate (e.g., Ph.D.)
7: No
STEP E - Question identifier 27: What was the major field of study of the highest certificate, diploma or degree that this person completed?

Please be specific.

For example, automobile mechanics, health care attendant, medical laboratory technology, civil engineering, agricultural economics, etc.

Print in capital letters as follows: COMPUTER ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY

1: Major field of study of highest certificate, diploma or degree; OR
2: No certificate, diploma or degree higher than high school. Go to question 29.
STEP E - Question identifier 28: In what province, territory or country did this person complete his or her highest certificate, diploma or degree?

1: In Canada — specify province or territory; OR
2: Outside Canada — specify country
STEP E - Question identifier 29: At any time since September 2015, has this person attended a school, college, CEGEP or university?

Mark as many circles as applicable.

Report only attendance for courses that can be used as credits towards a certificate, diploma or degree. Distance learning for credit is included.

1: Yes, attended elementary, junior high school or high school
2: Yes, attended trade school, business school, community college, technical institute, CEGEP or other non-university institution
3: Yes, attended university
4: No, did not attend school at any time since September 2015
Note: Many of the following questions refer to the week from Sunday, May 1 to Saturday, May 7, 2016.

LABOUR MARKET ACTIVITIES

STEP E - Question identifier 30: During the week of Sunday, May 1 to Saturday, May 7, 2016, how many hours did this person spend working for pay or in self-employment?

Please enter the total number of hours worked for pay or in self-employment at all jobs held during the week of May 1 to May 7.

Exclude number of hours:

away due to illness, on vacation or any other reasons
Include number of hours:

working for wages, salary, tips or commission
working overtime
working in his/her own business, farm or professional practice, alone or in partnership
working directly towards the operation of a family farm or business without formal pay arrangements (e.g., assisting in seeding, doing accounts)
1: Number of hours (to the nearest hour). Go to question 36; OR
2: None. Continue with the next question.
STEP E - Question identifier 31: During the week of May 1 to May 7, 2016, was this person on temporary lay-off or absent from his/her job or business?

Mark one circle only.

1: No
2: Yes, on temporary lay-off from a job to which this person expects to return
3: Yes, on vacation, ill, on strike or locked out, or absent for other reasons
STEP E - Question identifier 32: During the week of May 1 to May 7, 2016, did this person have definite arrangements to start a new job within the next four weeks?

1: No
2: Yes
STEP E - Question identifier 33: Did this person look for paid work during the four weeks from April 10 to May 7, 2016?

For example, did this person contact an employment centre, check with employers, place or answer newspaper ads, etc.?

Mark one circle only.

1: No. Go to question 35.
2: Yes, looked for full-time work
3: Yes, looked for part-time work (less than 30 hours per week)
STEP E - Question identifier 34: Could this person have started a job during the week of Sunday, May 1 to Saturday, May 7, 2016 had one been available?

Mark one circle only.

1: Yes, could have started a job
2: No, already had a job
3: No, because of temporary illness or disability
4: No, because of personal or family responsibilities
5: No, going to school
6: No, other reasons
STEP E - Question identifier 35: When did this person last work for pay or in self-employment, even for a few days?

Mark one circle only.

1: In 2016. Continue with the next question.
2: In 2015. Continue with the next question.
3: Before 2015. Go to question 49.
4: Never. Go to question 49.
Note: Questions 36 to 45 refer to this person's job or business during the week of May 1 to May 7, 2016. If this person held no job, answer for the job of longest duration since January 1, 2015. If this person held more than one job, answer for the job at which he or she worked the most hours.

STEP E - Question identifier 36: For whom did this person work?

For self-employed persons, enter the name of their business. If the business does not have a name, enter the person's name.

Print in capital letters as follows:
Name of firm, government agency, etc. ABC CONCRETE PRODUCTS LIMITED

1: Name of firm, government agency, etc.
2: Section, plant, department, etc. (if applicable)
STEP E - Question identifier 37: What kind of business, industry or service was this?

Please be specific. For example:

primary school
municipal police
wheat farm
shoe store
road construction
1: Kind of business, industry or service
STEP E - Question identifier 38: What was this person's work or occupation?

Please be specific. For example:

general practitioner
fishing guide
civil engineer
secondary school teacher
(If in the Armed Forces, give rank.)

1: Occupation
STEP E - Question identifier 39: In this work, what were this person's main activities?

Please be specific. For example:

diagnose and provide care
guided fishing parties
design and build bridges
taught mathematics
1: Main activities
STEP E - Question identifier 40: In this job or business, was this person mainly:

Mark one circle only.

1: working for wages, salary, tips or commission? Go to question 42.
2: working without pay for his/her spouse or another relative in a family farm or business? Go to question 42.
3: self-employed without paid help (alone or in partnership)?
4: self-employed with paid help (alone or in partnership)?
STEP E - Question identifier 41: If self-employed, was this person's farm or business incorporated?

1: No
2: Yes
STEP E - Question identifier 42: At what address did this person usually work most of the time?

Example: Number 365, Name Laurier, Type Ave., Direction West

If direction (e.g., North, South, East or West) is a part of the street address, please include it.

If street address is unknown or if the address is a post office box, specify the building or nearest street intersection. Do not give a post office box number.

Please give the name of the city or town rather than the metropolitan area of which it is a part.

For example:

Saanich rather than Victoria (metropolitan area)
St. Albert rather than Edmonton (metropolitan area)
Laval rather than Montréal (metropolitan area)
If the address of work is different than the address of the employer, please provide the address where this person actually works (e.g., school teachers should provide the address of their school, not the address of the school board).

1: Worked at home (including farms). Go to question 45.
2: Worked outside Canada. Go to question 45.
3: No fixed workplace address. Continue with the next question.
4: Worked at the address specified below. Street address (see example).City, town, village, township, municipality or Indian reserve. Province/territory. Postal code.
STEP E - Question identifier 43: a) How did this person usually get to work?

If this person used more than one method of travel to work, mark the one used for most of the travel distance.

Mark "Subway or elevated rail" for:

Vancouver SkyTrain,
Toronto Subway/RT,
Montréal Metro.
Mark "Light rail, streetcar or commuter train" for:

Vancouver West Coast Express,
Calgary CTrain,
Edmonton LRT,
Toronto streetcars,
Toronto GO Train,
Ottawa O-Train,
Montréal commuter trains.
1: Car, truck or van — as a driver. Go to question 43 b).
2: Car, truck or van — as a passenger. Go to question 43 b).
3: Bus. Go to question 44 a).
4: Subway or elevated rail. Go to question 44 a).
5: Light rail, streetcar or commuter train. Go to question 44 a).
6: Passenger ferry. Go to question 44 a).
7: Walked to work. Go to question 44 a).
8: Bicycle. Go to question 44 a).
9: Motorcycle, scooter or moped. Go to question 44 a).
10: Other method. Go to question 44 a).
b) How many people, including this person, usually shared the ride to work in this car, truck or van?

1: Drove alone
2: 2 people
3: 3 or more people
STEP E - Question identifier 44: a) What time did this person usually leave home to go to work?

1: Time in hours and minutes (a.m. or p.m.)
b) How many minutes did it usually take this person to get from home to work?

1: Number of minutes
STEP E - Question identifier 45: a) In this job, what language did this person use most often?

1: English
2: French
3: Other language — specify
b) Did this person use any other languages on a regular basis in this job?

1: No
2: Yes, English
3: Yes, French
4: Yes, other language — specify
STEP E - Question identifier 46: How many weeks did this person work in 2015?

Please enter the total number of weeks worked for pay or in self-employment at all jobs held in 2015.

Include those weeks in which this person:

was on vacation or sick leave with pay;
worked full time or part time;
worked for wages, salary, tips or commission;
was self-employed;
worked directly toward the operation of a family farm or business without formal pay arrangements.
1: None. Go to question 49; OR
2: Number of weeks
STEP E - Question identifier 47: During most of those weeks, did this person work full time or part time?

Mark one circle only.

1: Full time (30 hours or more per week)
2: Part time (less than 30 hours per week)
STEP E - Question identifier 48: In 2015, did this person pay for child care, such as day care or babysitting, so that this person could work at his or her paid job(s)?

When child care or day camps helps several people work, enter the amount only once.

Answer "Yes" or "No". If "Yes", also enter the total amount for 2015.

1: Yes. Enter the total amount for 2015.
2: No
STEP E - Question identifier 49: In 2015, did this person pay child or spousal support payments to a former spouse or partner?

Support payments are covered by an agreement to pay a fixed amount on a regular basis. Exclude all other gifts or transfers of money. Include only support payments actually paid.

Answer "Yes" or "No". If "Yes", also enter the total amount for 2015.

1: Yes. Enter the total amount for 2015.
2: No
STEP F
Answer Questions F1 to F10 about this dwelling. The questions refer to May 10, 2016 unless otherwise specified.

A dwelling is a separate set of living quarters with a private entrance from the outside or from a common hallway or stairway inside the building. This entrance should not be through someone else's living quarters.

STEP F - Question identifier: F1. Who pays the rent or mortgage, taxes, electricity, etc., for this dwelling?

If more than one person contributes to such payments, mark as many circles as apply.

1: Person 1
2: Person 2
3: Person 3
4: Person 4
5: Person 5
6: A person who is listed on another questionnaire for this dwelling
7: A person who does not live here
STEP F - Question identifier: F2. Is this dwelling:

Mark on circle only.

1: owned by you or a member of this household (even if it is still being paid for)?
2: rented (even if no cash rent is paid)?
STEP F - Question identifier: F3. Is this dwelling part of a condominium development?

1: Yes
2: No
STEP F - Question identifier: F4. a) How many rooms are there in this dwelling?

Count: kitchen, bedrooms, finished rooms in attic or basement, etc.

Do not count: bathrooms, halls, vestibules and rooms used solely for business purposes.

1: Number of rooms
b) How many of these rooms are bedrooms?

Count: all rooms designed as bedrooms, even if they are now used for something else. Also count basement bedrooms.

1: Number of bedrooms
STEP F - Question identifier: F5. When was this dwelling originally built?

Mark the period in which the building was completed, not the time of any later remodelling, additions or conversions. If year is not known, give best estimate.

1: 1920 or before
2: 1921-1945
3: 1946-1960
4: 1961-1970
5: 1971-1980
6: 1981-1990
7: 1991-1995
8: 1996-2000
9: 2001-2005
10: 2006-2010
11: 2011-2016
STEP F - Question identifier: F6. Is this dwelling in need of any repairs?

Do not include desirable remodelling or additions.

1: No, only regular maintenance is needed (painting, furnace cleaning, etc.)
2: Yes, minor repairs are needed (missing or loose floor tiles, bricks or shingles, defective steps, railings or sidings, etc.)
3: Yes, major repairs are needed (defective plumbing or electrical wiring, structural repairs to walls, floors or ceilings, etc.)
STEP F - Question identifier: F7. Is this dwelling located on an agricultural operation that is operated by a member of this household?

1: Yes. Go to Step G.
2: No. Continue this section.
Answer Questions F8 to F10 for this dwelling even if you own or rent more than one dwelling. If the exact amount is not known, please give a best estimate.

STEP F - Question identifier: F8. For this dwelling, what are the YEARLY payments (last 12 months) for:

a) electricity?

1: None
2: Included in rent or other payments; OR Enter the amount per year
b) oil, gas, coal, wood or other fuels?

1: None
2: Included in rent or other payments; OR Enter the amount per year
c) water and other municipal services?

1: None
2: Included in rent or other payments; OR Enter the amount per year
STEP F - Question identifier: F9. For RENTERS only, answer parts a) and b):

a) What is the monthly rent paid for this dwelling?

1: Rented without payment of cash rent; OR
2: Enter the amount per month
b) Is this dwelling subsidized?

Subsidized housing includes rent geared to income, social housing, public housing, government assisted housing, non-profit housing, rent supplements, and housing allowances.

1: Yes
2: No
STEP F - Question identifier: F10. For OWNERS only, answer part a) through e):

a) What are the total regular monthly mortgage or loan payments for this dwelling?

1: None. Go to part c); OR
2: Enter the amount per month
b) Are the property taxes (municipal and school) included in the amount shown in part a)?

1: Yes. Go to part d).
2: No
c) What are the estimated yearly property taxes (municipal and school) for this dwelling?

1: None; OR
2: Enter the amount per year
d) If you were to sell this dwelling now, for how much would you expect to sell it?

1: Enter the amount
e) What are the monthly condominium fees?

1: None; OR
2: Enter the amount per month
STEP G
This question is for all persons listed on the questionnaire, including children younger than 15. If you are answering on behalf of other people, please consult each person.

STEP G - Question identifier: G1. Does this person agree to make his or her 2016 National Household Survey information available in 2108 (92 years after the National Household Survey)?

Only if you answer "Yes" will your responses be available to future generations and historical researchers, 92 years after the 2016 National Household Survey, in 2108.

Person 1
1: Yes
2: No
Person 2
1: Yes
2: No
Person 3
1: Yes
2: No
Person 4
1: Yes
2: No
Person 5
1: Yes
2: No

[N_Fiddledog]

OK now fill that out or go to jail, cause Justin and Gerald say so.

[Thanos]

If they send one to me I vow that I'll use all the names in this clips as answers. And that includes double using of Blast Hardcheese, Bigg McLargeHuge, and Bob Johnson.

[Lemmy]

Fiddly Fiddly:

There has always been a penalty that can include jail. It now covers the long form as well as the short.

And how many people were jailed under the "old ways"? The answer's "none", isn't it? So why would people be going to jail now?

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

But here is what we are told is the Libertarian response to the news that a more intrusive census is now mandatory (as in jail is possible).

Liberals to restore mandatory long-form census

Lemmy Lemmy:

x 2

Jesus Christ, you're dense. You're going to ignore everything I said to you and go back to the words you wrongly put in my mouth the first time? Words that I never said nor implied...AGAIN. I already explained what I cheered 4 times, I'm not going to explain it to you a 5th.

Nice dodge, though, ignoring every point I made.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

OK now fill that out or go to jail, cause Justin and Gerald say so.

If and when someone actually gets sentenced to jailtime for refusing to do the census you can be outraged. Until then, you're frothing over nothing as usual. You don't think a jail sentence for violating this law would result in a Section 7 Charter challenge? Of course it would. So relax, the Charter of Rights has your back here.

[N_Fiddledog]

No Lemmy. I'm not outraged. You're outraged. Your BS was called and now you're outraged.

I'm opposed to authoritarian creep as it makes its incremental advances into society.

It's the Libertarian in me.

You apparently are not.

Also that long form, is just too freaking long and too intrusive. If nobody was penalized for not sending something like that back, or sending it back half or falsely completed then the penalty was not strictly enforced.

So you say it's paranoia to suspect it might be strictly enforced this time. I say it's lazy gullibility to put your faith in that. The authoritarian hand looks to be making an incremental appearance and there are conservatives, classic liberals, and real libertarians who will object - quietly at first. If it advances further the protests will get louder.

[Lemmy]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

It's the Libertarian in me.

Your bum-chum is a libertarian?

[N_Fiddledog]

Lemmy Lemmy:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

It's the Libertarian in me.

Your bum-chum is a libertarian?

I'm what they're now calling a Cultural Libertarian (look it up).

Basically we're the counter-Prog, counter-bullshit party.

[Thanos]

Lemmy Lemmy:

If and when someone actually gets sentenced to jailtime for refusing to do the census you can be outraged. Until then, you're frothing over nothing as usual. You don't think a jail sentence for violating this law would result in a Section 7 Charter challenge? Of course it would. So relax, the Charter of Rights has your back here.

That's debatable at best, especially when dealing with a SCC that's had some interesting interpretations about what is and what isn't constitutional ever since the Charter was made official. Given that the SCC has given a pass on multiple occasions to the multiple provincial and federal HRC's in this country that have behaved like borderline fascists when they try to police free speech there's zero guarantee that anyone challenging Stats Can on their right not to answer census questions would be protected by the law. If the right to participate in the system is protected under the constitution then by default the right not to participate should be seen as equally important but I certainly don't trust the SCC to come to that same conclusion. That anyone in the government or bureaucracy would even conceive of punishing someone for non-participation in the intrusive long-form census is one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen a Canadian government try to do in my lifetime and I'm hardly a civil libertarian that believes in the type of freedom that mostly resembles anarchy is something that society is obligated to tolerate.

[BeaverFever]

You're the complete opposite pf counter-bullshit. You're entire political movement is about supressing facts (such as killing the census, muzzling scientists etc), electing leaders who not only lack basic qualifications but are often not even generally educated, and making policy based on self-serving claims that are either known to be false or are completely unverifiable.

How can you call yourself counter-bullshit when almost every post of yours links to right wing conspiracy blog site or to Ezra Levant as a source?

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

How can you call yourself counter-bullshit when almost every post of yours links to right wing conspiracy blog site or to Ezra Levant as a source?

Easy Peasy. Watch.

That's bullshit. Some is not all. The tendency of you and yours to say some is all (or even 'almost all) is bullshit.

I post a ton of links. My use of Rebel media is minimal.

Ezra is the free speech guy. He even supports your right to demagogue him.

He is willing to face the message. You are not. You must rely on marginalization of personality to make your point rather than evidence-based dealing with the issue. That's why he's better than you.

That's why yours is a message of bullshit, and I'm counter it. Get it?