[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Islam preaches no more violence than the Old Testamount - a fact curiously forgotten by many

Yeah, and there are just so many western cultures that use the Old Testament to order their society today, unlike current Islamic societies . We had feudalism and the divine right of kings too, but they haven't been around for centuries. What exactly is your point?

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Islam preaches no more violence than the Old Testamount - a fact curiously forgotten by many

Yeah, and there are just so many western cultures that use the Old Testament to order their society today, unlike current Islamic societies . We had feudalism and the divine right of kings too, but they haven't been around for centuries. What exactly is your point?

That the OT is still widely used in modern western society.

Not hard now was it?

[Zipperfish]

Yes medieval England is full of lots of horrible history. Rounding up the Jews and throwing them off things. Burning people at the stake because they couldn't keep up with the religion du jour. Indiscriminate slaughter in Scotland and Ireland. Over time, we've become a far more secular society. That has correlated with a more prosperous, less violent society.

We're seeing a similar struggle in Islam. I mean, it's convenient to blame the West, but there is a strong internal compnent to what is going on. It's a struggle by Islamists to attain political power, and an ongoing civil war between Sunni and Shi'a.

I have no dog in that fight, and I doubt any interference by western powers will be appreciated in the short term or the long.

[ShepherdsDog]

@Gunnair

No comparison between sharia and what you're suggesting...next contestant please.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Burning people at the stake because they couldn't keep up with the religion du jour.

interesting thing about how Islam made such quick inroads into the western ME. The area was rife with competing heresies between the 4th and 7th century. One new interpretation of Christianity would pop up and make inroads before it was crushed by Byzantine authorities backed by imperial legions...they might be officially christian , but they were still Roman legions with all the compassion that went with them...Anywho, when Islam came about most of the folk who weren't religious fanatics said fuck it...Jesus is still the messiah(in the jewish definition of messiah), there'd be a second coming and day of judgment and a reward for the faithful in this new faith.... and there's only one extra prophet with the sabbath has moved back a couple days. It wasn't that big change in belief systems, as Mosaic law was still the thing and if you accepted it you didn't get taxed as much

[jeff744]

stratos stratos:

$1:

The fact alone that Islam managed to unite the region as much as it has is a miracle considering before Islam the region was essentially the Middle Eastern version of Mongolia.

Actually prior to the Muslim/Islamic invasion much of the Middle East and N. Africa was part of the Roman then Byzantium Empire which was the eastern half of the Roman Empire. When Rome "fell", the Byzantium Empire came in and reasserted control of the chaos that was going on in the region of N. Africa. They the Byzantium Empire, was already in control of the Middle East area be it under the Roman Empire or the Byzantium for around 1000yrs prior to the Muslim invasion.

Not sure if "Muslim invasion" is a proper term but it does fit.

I mean more in terms of the Sahara, Saudi Arabia, etc which were basically constantly plaguing the more settled regions.

[ShepherdsDog]

They weren't any less warlike once they converted from Christianity, paganism or Judaism. North Africa was made up of Byzantine/Roman provinces and vassals

[jeff744]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Burning people at the stake because they couldn't keep up with the religion du jour.

interesting thing about how Islam made such quick inroads into the western ME. The area was rife with competing heresies between the 4th and 7th century. One new interpretation of Christianity would pop up and make inroads before it was crushed by Byzantine authorities backed by imperial legions...they might be officially christian , but they were still Roman legions with all the compassion that went with them...Anywho, when Islam came about most of the folk who weren't religious fanatics said fuck it...Jesus is still the messiah(in the jewish definition of messiah), there'd be a second coming and day of judgment and a reward for the faithful in this new faith.... and there's only one extra prophet with the sabbath has moved back a couple days. It wasn't that big change in belief systems, as Mosaic law was still the thing and if you accepted it you didn't get taxed as much

To be fair, that would be a Christian Legion, the pagan ones sacked and pillaged and the like but they didn't tend to massacre entire peoples unless they were linked to some rebellion (which were strangely uncommon after a few generations of rule usually). They would often go out into the field and come back with a few more gods than before and usually had a policy of ignoring even the monotheistic peoples. Christianity came around and kinda turned them and the rest of Europe into religious hardasses that prosecuted progress.

[jeff744]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

They weren't any less warlike once they converted from Christianity, paganism or Judaism. North Africa was made up of Byzantine/Roman provinces and vassals

No but it changed them from only killing each other to fighting beside each other and basically kicking the crap out of Christians for a while.

[ShepherdsDog]

you think that tribal and clan rivalries stopped? They were only put on hold for a bit.

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

@Gunnair

No comparison between sharia and what you're suggesting...next contestant please.

Of course not.

[Gunnair]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Yes medieval England is full of lots of horrible history. Rounding up the Jews and throwing them off things. Burning people at the stake because they couldn't keep up with the religion du jour. Indiscriminate slaughter in Scotland and Ireland. Over time, we've become a far more secular society. That has correlated with a more prosperous, less violent society.

We're seeing a similar struggle in Islam. I mean, it's convenient to blame the West, but there is a strong internal compnent to what is going on. It's a struggle by Islamists to attain political power, and an ongoing civil war between Sunni and Shi'a.

I have no dog in that fight, and I doubt any interference by western powers will be appreciated in the short term or the long.

Agreed with most, however, not with the less violent secular society. Two world wars and several significant European ones suggest otherwise. The west simply found something else to fight about.

[BartSimpson]

Gunnair Gunnair:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Here's the thing though; if you want to be known as the religion of peace, shouldn't you be known for doing things that are, oh I don't know, peaceful?

All this rape, torture, slavery, beheading, suicide bombing - all to the calls of Jihad, and allulah Akhbars - are not good for the rep. The fact it's all so widespread, historically consistent, and inducing of power over so many, does not do the 'religion of peace' any favors if being peaceful is the rep they honestly want to be known for. It's reasonable to expect the "religion of peace" to expect some mocking, IMHO.

Not really unless again, you apply that criteria to all religions that call themselves a 'religion of peace'.

Fixed that for you.

[Gunnair]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Gunnair Gunnair:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Here's the thing though; if you want to be known as the religion of peace, shouldn't you be known for doing things that are, oh I don't know, peaceful?

All this rape, torture, slavery, beheading, suicide bombing - all to the calls of Jihad, and allulah Akhbars - are not good for the rep. The fact it's all so widespread, historically consistent, and inducing of power over so many, does not do the 'religion of peace' any favors if being peaceful is the rep they honestly want to be known for. It's reasonable to expect the "religion of peace" to expect some mocking, IMHO.

Not really unless again, you apply that criteria to all religions that call themselves a 'religion of peace'.

Fixed that for you.

Christianity isn't a religion of peace?

Huh.

[BartSimpson]

Gunnair Gunnair:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Islam preaches no more violence than the Old Testamount - a fact curiously forgotten by many

Yeah, and there are just so many western cultures that use the Old Testament to order their society today, unlike current Islamic societies . We had feudalism and the divine right of kings too, but they haven't been around for centuries. What exactly is your point?

That the OT is still widely used in modern western society.

Not hard now was it?