[Thanos]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I bet you secretly feel sorry for the nazis too.

As you should 'coz we got robbed.

[ShepherdsDog]

commanderkai commanderkai:

$1:

Sad to see them copy the actions of their former oppressors (Nazis) in so many ways.

Oh, please do tell where this idiocy is coming from? Where's the mass murder, the concentration camps, the removal of civil and political rights for Israeli Arabs before they're murdered?

It mostly comes from ignorance ck. It's just like those who refer to Canadian cops as fascists or gestapo. They lack the experience and or education to apply the term in its proper context.

@thanos - take it up with the Poles and the Russians if you want your land back...Danzig and Königsberg are easier on the tongue than Gdansk and Kaliningrad

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

[



Oh, please do tell where this idiocy is coming from? Where's the mass murder, the concentration camps, the removal of civil and political rights for Israeli Arabs before they're murdered?

Lebensraum. Claim to the land because of being special people. Sound familiar/ But nice dodge.

[Thanos]

andyt andyt:

You forgot the 4th option. Israel pushes all the Palestinians into the Jordan, making Samara and Judea ethnically pure once again. Hallalujah, Jaysus can then return to rule the world.

Actually if the Jews had done this exact thing back in 1948/56/67 the current problem wouldn't even exist. Ethnic cleansing may be an evil bitch when it's going on but it does eventually succeed in stopping the endless internecine fighting between ethnicities that hate each other. The Soviets basically kicked all the ethnic Germans out of their old settler territories ranging from western Poland to the Volga river at the end of WW2 and pretty much forever ended all of the millenium-old German dreams of Teutonic overlordship crushing the sub-human Slavs; the Russians also forcibly separated Poles and Ukrainians from each other and put an end to the ongoing hostility that the two groups had for each other for centuries . I'm quite sure that the Bosnians, Serbs, and Croatians detest each other as much today as they did in 1995 but the ethnic cleansing that they all engaged in during the Yugoslavian civil war that permanently ended all inter-mixing got rid of the worst of the tensions among them.

It's all counter-intuitive to us in the West who believe that everything in human existence can be easily reduced to hand-holding, sunshine & lollipops, and singing Kumbaya. In the rest of the world though, more often than not, not living together is about the only thing that can allow a somewhat stable state of peace to break out.

[Thanos]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Why should Israel go back to its pre-67 borders? Why should Israel pull away from Jerusalem, or the Golan Heights?

They shouldn't. It would be tactically and strategically suicidal to do so.

[andyt]

Except it's the exact same thing Isrealis accuse their enemies of being anti-semitic for - pushing Israelis into the sea.

The thing is that Israel has a state. It's only by taking more land do they face this problem. And annexing the West Bank won't make them safer, the risk of Arab attacks remains no matter what. But Israel would certainly have my support, and the support of a lot of other people, if they stayed behind their boundaries and then had to defend themselves against attacks. Hell, some Israelis talke about taking Jordan as well - it's expansionism, pure and simple, no different than Germany's was.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

some Israelis talke about taking Jordan as well

Some crazies in the States talk about taking us too. Israel occupied The Sinai after Egypt tried to invade but they gave all of it back and removed all the settlers and their infrastructure

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

Lebensraum. Claim to the land because of being special people. Sound familiar/ But nice dodge.

How is it a dodge? I asked how Israel was matching Nazi Germany, since it lacked some of its defining features. In your mind, you have one trait that might be similar, while still making the comparison between Israel and one of the world's most infamous empires.

Last I checked, Israel, historically, has been willing to give up portions of its territory to accommodate peace. The return of the Sinai to Egypt, and the removal of settlements and military forces from Gaza certainly highlights that rather well.

Now, of course, the whole Gaza pullout is completely ignored these days. So, if giving the Palestinians exactly what they want rewards Israel with two major military engagements, a stream of rocket attacks, and other forms of terrorism, what incentive is there for Israel to pull away from the Golan Heights (which would be returned to Syria, not exactly the most Israel friendly place), let alone Jerusalem and her suburbs?

Also, why should Israel pull back from the 1967 borders? I ask this, again, because any return to the 67 borders would mean returning the Golan Heights and huge chunks of Jerusalem, something that Israelis, as a whole, would be highly against such an action without some evidence it would provide them with recognition of their right to exist, and peace with her neighbors.

[andyt]

Jerusalem is a thorny problem, I'm not sure anybody has an answer to that one. Golan heights - don't know enough about it, not sure it's worth hanging on to tho. But when I say 67 borders, I mean approximately. Of course there would be some negotiating. For instance land swaps for some of the bigger settlements. I just mean as a starting point, to show they are serious about peace. Ie at least don't build more settlements and close the smaller ones. That would be a good start. Just leave the Palestinians a contiguous, reasonable piece of land - not that it would ever amount to much. Then, as I say, if Palestinians continue to attack, Israel can smack them militarily as much as they want, as far as I'm concerned.

As for Gaza, same deal. If Israel shows real intentions of giving back some territory and not keep grabbing more, and they get rockets coming from Gaza, most people would not condemn them for going in there and kicking ass.

As to why it's a dodge - you're saying Israel has to behave exactly like Nazi Germany for the critcism to hold. I'm saying that imitating a major component, including the racism, is enough. I'm not saying they are like Nazi Germany, but they are copying one of its biggest features - the reason we went to war with them.

[ShepherdsDog]

The Israelis took Gaza from the Egyptians and then left all of it ....what land do they give back and who do they give the land back to? The Golan Heights can't be given back unless they have a permanent international military force there. Too many Israeli towns and villages would be within range of Syrian artillery. That's why it was taken in the first place. Been there a few times....great views

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

Golan heights - don't know enough about it, not sure it's worth hanging on to tho.

You should have stopped right there, but you have amply demonstrated

why you didn't.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

Jerusalem is a thorny problem, I'm not sure anybody has an answer to that one. Golan heights - don't know enough about it, not sure it's worth hanging on to tho. But when I say 67 borders, I mean approximately. Of course there would be some negotiating. For instance land swaps for some of the bigger settlements. I just mean as a starting point, to show they are serious about peace. Ie at least don't build more settlements and close the smaller ones. That would be a good start. Just leave the Palestinians a contiguous, reasonable piece of land - not that it would ever amount to much. Then, as I say, if Palestinians continue to attack, Israel can smack them militarily as much as they want, as far as I'm concerned.

Which I agree with. Golan Heights will be a deal with Syria...whenever Syria isn't a massive clusterfuck, or they'll just occupy it until the end of time. Anyway, in no way would any Palestinian state would ever get the Golan Heights.

But yeah, my apologies if I sounded irritable, but whenever people say pre-67 borders, it comes off as basically demanding Israel to pull another Gaza and hope for the best, and that includes giving up huge portions of Jerusalem that Israelis will never willingly give up. I have no issue with territorial swaps, and certainly Israel would be willing to commit to such swaps, if they have been willing to make such concessions in past deals, both with the Palestinians, and with Egypt and bordering nations.

I do agree that Israel shouldn't build more settlements, but Israelis, in my view, operate in realpolitik terms when it comes to the Palestinians and her neighbors. To them, building more settlements is trying to tell the Palestinian Authority to hammer out a deal with Israel and stick with it, or Israel will continually add on the pressure.

As an example, it'd be like Canada building the Keystone XL pipeline in the United States to finally get Obama to make a damn decision, while making any anti-Keystone choices more and more difficult as the pipeline is more firmly entrenched.

Certainly, it's not exactly ethical, or "proper" international relations, but we're not talking about how Western democracies conduct international relations here.

$1:

As for Gaza, same deal. If Israel shows real intentions of giving back some territory and not keep grabbing more, and they get rockets coming from Gaza, most people would not condemn them for going in there and kicking ass.

Well, that's the point. Israel isn't grabbing territory from Gaza. It hasn't since they unilaterally pulled both military and civilian forces from the territory in 2005. Ariel Sharon, which a lot of leftists viewed as an Israeli warhawk, gave the Palestinians their closest step to statehood by removing all of Israel's forces.

Sadly, then Hamas was elected, and the whole thing degraded into the mess we now know and hate. The Gaza Palestinians clutched the idiot ball known as Hamas, and they're now stuck with it.

[Curtman]

commanderkai commanderkai:

andyt andyt:

Agreed. The US dances around this fact (Canada has stopped dancing). If Israel retreated behind '67 borders they would have my full support.

Why should Israel go back to its pre-67 borders? Why should Israel pull away from Jerusalem, or the Golan Heights?

UN recognizes Palestine as non-member observer state

$1:

The historic vote came after impassioned speeches from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who asked the UN to “issue the birth certificate of Palestine,” and Ron Prosor, the Israeli Ambassador to the UN, who said a vote in favour of Palestinian statehood would be detrimental to peace in the region.
UN member nations voted 138-9 in favour of recognizing Palestine. Forty-one countries abstained from voting.

That's one real good reason why.. The overwhelming number of countries believe that is the right thing to do. Sadly, Harper put us in the 9.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/ga11317.doc.htm

[commanderkai]

Curtman Curtman:

commanderkai commanderkai:

andyt andyt:

Agreed. The US dances around this fact (Canada has stopped dancing). If Israel retreated behind '67 borders they would have my full support.

Why should Israel go back to its pre-67 borders? Why should Israel pull away from Jerusalem, or the Golan Heights?

UN recognizes Palestine as non-member observer state


That's one real good reason why.. The overwhelming number of countries believe that is the right thing to do. Sadly, Harper put us in the 9.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/ga11317.doc.htm

No, actually, it's not. Unless the Security Council (or, better known as the organization in the United Nations that actually has some power) ordered Israel to pull back to pre-67 borders, then maybe you'd have a legitimate reason why Israel might be justified to do so. General Assembly grandstanding measures like recognizing Palestine as a non-member "state" won't change anything, except convince Israel to continue realpolitik policies. Last I checked, the two dozen or so General Assembly resolutions yearly against Israel hasn't changed anything, have they?

[Curtman]

The security council is the only thing the U.S. has veto over. Dangling impossible carrots in front of Palestinians won't bring peace.