[andyt]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

andyt andyt:

Sure, if you legalize pot, there will be people who grow it and then try to sell it without paying taxes. And there will have to be enforcement around that.

Why will there have to be enforcement around that? Last time I checked plenty of people brewed their own beer and made their own wine. They aren't paying taxes on that and no one seems to care. Pot is somehow different? Or are you talking about large scale grow-op's?

They're making their own hooch legally. It's only if they try to sell it that it becomes illegal. Same deal would have to apply to pot - no way you can stop people growing it for their own consumption, but if they want to sell it they'll have to sell to the pot distributing agency(ies). We want the taxes that come from regulating pot, not just a free for all.

[Zipperfish]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

Lol, how is LEAP new?

One of the great failigns of Anti-Marijuana campaigns are the lies of it that students will vilify their stance with. It becomes more than a practice but outright defiance. Ultiamtely choosing for themselves what is right and wrong and not taking the views they've been fed.

So yeah lying to kids about pot is bad. It's like Santa Claus.

Couldn't agree more. The War on Drugs was lost because of marijuana. You had these yahoos coming up and going on and on about the evils of marijuana, yet (at elast in Canada) over half the population has tried pot at least once, and so, just based on their own personal experience, they know these guys are full of it.

So, if based on your own personal experience that they are spinning a load of crap on marijuanna, then why would we believe them for any of the other drugs. They ruined their own credibility by deliberately and grossly exageerting the risks of pot and lumping it in with drugs that actually do appreciable harm.

I don't imagine pot emancipation anytime soon. They're moving the opposite direction here in BC. I wouldn't be surprised to see alcohol and tobacco prohibition get raised in the next five years.

[BartSimpson]

Curtman Curtman:

$1:

When he joined the force, Bratzer wholeheartedly supported laws against drug possession but his position gradually shifted after hearing LEAP's message.
He learned that the paradox of prohibition is the more a substance is driven underground, the more it creates a black market that feeds crime.

I guess we should legalize child porn, too.

[Curtman]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Booze is out in Iran, but you can smoke grass?

I never thought to look it up until now, but Wikipedia and a site called "A Traveler's Guide to Getting High" seem to agree that:

webehigh.com webehigh.com:

Legislation: Iran has a very interesting policy towards buds - planting marijuana is legal if planted for food purposes because Iranians still eat the seeds just like sunflower seeds, and there are also companies in tehran that draw the oil from the seed and sell it legally.

The punishment for possesion of marijuana is a fine of Iranian Rials 10000 (US $1.25)for every gram in your possesion and as long as you have less than 10-15 grams they will not even hassle you. Please always use common sense and caution and remember a smile is better than a frown.

[Curtman]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Curtman Curtman:

We don't have alcohol smugglers shooting each other in the street.

Tobacco, we have real statistics to show that education, regulation, and taxation can work to reduce usage.

The violence from the black market movie industry is negligible too I think.

Which unfortunately highlights what a bad job the government does identifying to the public just who is smuggling booze and smokes. A lot of it comes from the Hell's Angels and other biker gangs. If you think they're not shooting each other; you're wrong.

I will agree there doesn't seem to be too many movie-related murders in the courts right now. However, it does illustrate that its the profit of these in-demand items that fuels the crimes, not the mere illegality of whatever the commodity happens to be.

Funny you should mention that, this was in the news the other day:

Windsor cop who smuggled booze should keep job: union

$1:

A Windsor, Ont., police constable who admits to smuggling cases of booze across the border and doing illegal background checks will learn his fate at the end of January.

The biker gangs are exactly who I am talking about. They'll tell you, and anybody else who studies the issue will tell you that they make money from marijuana, prostitution, and cocain. In that order.

Dayseed Dayseed:

$1:

Crooks won't trade it, because legitimate businesses will.

I disagree. If you're correct that crooks don't concern themselves when legitimate business trade in a commodity, explain pirated movies, videogames, stolen cars, sawed-off airbags, hacked/cracked cellphones et cetera.

$1:

Crooks do it now because the price is inflated, and they have a monopoly on the market. The way criminals operate now, they sort out their problems outside of the law. They protect their interests that way as well. When Molson wants to increase sales, they don't do a drive by at Labatt's.

Um, all of the above is beside the point that criminals will continue to trade in marijuana despite it being legalized. If your next point is somehow that violence is linked to the illegality I again direct you to the many adventures of outlaw motorcycle gangs and the Calabrian/Sicilian mob.

Well if you're asking me to prove to you that regulating marijuana will end all crime as we know it, it's not going to happen. The problem with marijuana prohibition is two main things. The amount of profit that it generates for organized crime, and how it is used to draw in youth into organized crime. I'm not really interested in rights for drug users, or generating tax revenue. Those aren't issues that I care about. Reducing violence is.

[Curtman]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

They're moving the opposite direction here in BC. I wouldn't be surprised to see alcohol and tobacco prohibition get raised in the next five years.

This is interesting.. Vancouver seems to be the epicenter of the marijuana legalization movement. You're saying the pendulum is about to swing back? I doubt that, the medicinal marijuana issue has removed most of the taboo from the discussion. We just watched California vote 54% to 46% against legalization. I think in Canada we're probably over the tipping point in most places.

[Curtman]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Curtman Curtman:

$1:

When he joined the force, Bratzer wholeheartedly supported laws against drug possession but his position gradually shifted after hearing LEAP's message.
He learned that the paradox of prohibition is the more a substance is driven underground, the more it creates a black market that feeds crime.

I guess we should legalize child porn, too.

The difference is the victim. It's the innocent child in your example.

The victims in the other case, became victims because of the justice system and the law.

[BartSimpson]

Curtman Curtman:

The difference is the victim. It's the innocent child in your example.

The victims in the other case, became victims because of the justice system and the law.

No, they became users of an illicit substance. They are not victims unless someone forces them to toke up...and that's rarely heard of.

By the way, my own opinion on this topic is I'm in favor of legalization of all controlled drugs so long as people who are incapacitated by voluntary drug abuse are categorically prohibited from any and all public subsidies *except* for drug rehabilitation.

If you want to have a heroin or pot habit that's fine by me so long as you don't expect me to show up to work every day to pay for it.

[Curtman]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Curtman Curtman:

The difference is the victim. It's the innocent child in your example.

The victims in the other case, became victims because of the justice system and the law.

No, they became users of an illicit substance. They are not victims unless someone forces them to toke up...and that's rarely heard of.

If you want to say that the user is the victim, that's one way of looking at it. I don't think so though. You could say it's the people who are impacted by their use maybe. Family, coworkers, etc. There's no reason to believe that the laws are effective at reducing usage though.

I'd say its more likely to be the people who get caught up in the crossfire when they gangsters fight each other.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

By the way, my own opinion on this topic is I'm in favor of legalization of all controlled drugs so long as people who are incapacitated by voluntary drug abuse are categorically prohibited from any and all public subsidies *except* for drug rehabilitation.

If you want to have a heroin or pot habit that's fine by me so long as you don't expect me to show up to work every day to pay for it.

Agreed.. I enjoy discussing this topic, because I believe that it's a simple way to reduce violence, and to remove profit from organized crime. Crime shouldn't pay, but prohibition lets it.

[ASLplease]

andyt andyt:

Supposedly pot is already BC's largest industry in terms of money. (2 billion a year, I think). Think of what that would do for the govt if some of that flowed to the govt as taxes.

fording coal makes 2 billion profit per year and natural gas is a 6.1 billion dollar industry. do you remember your source?

[Dayseed]

Curtman Curtman:

The biker gangs are exactly who I am talking about. They'll tell you, and anybody else who studies the issue will tell you that they make money from marijuana, prostitution, and cocain. In that order.

And do you have any sources for that? It seems like you pulled it completely out of your ass. Mostly because you forgo the alcohol/tobacco smuggling, illegal gambling (if you think pot pays, you apparently have made much of a study of illegal gambling. Estimates from legal VLTs show that they make roughly $60,000 each a year. Do you think organized crime has the same high payouts that provinces and states do? Let's not forget bookmaking either. Plus, all gamblers eventually lose to the house, the bikers or the mob, and then take out loans at usurious rates) arms smuggling, protection rackets and last, but not least, good old thefts.

If you've got access to the Hell's Angels ledgers, I'd be interested in reading them.

Really.

$1:

Well if you're asking me to prove to you that regulating marijuana will end all crime as we know it, it's not going to happen.

Take that Straw-Man! Kapowie!

$1:

The problem with marijuana prohibition is two main things. The amount of profit that it generates for organized crime, and how it is used to draw in youth into organized crime. I'm not really interested in rights for drug users, or generating tax revenue. Those aren't issues that I care about. Reducing violence is.

By God...I agree with the above! At places like Jane/Finch, it's next to impossible to convince a kid that he shouldn't sell pot for a few hundred bucks a week so he can buy himself stuff and rather should get yelled at by a boss for 20 hours a week to make half the money at some retail spot at the Yorkgate Mall.

[bootlegga]

Bodah Bodah:

Weed should at least be legalized, its a no brainer. Does way less damage than booze does. As it stands now kids have an easier time getting weed than booze. Weed dealers don't card people for id.

Too much of anything in life is no good for you. The biggest danger from smoking too much weed is apathy.

I think this is the first time we've ever agreed on anything!

[Zipperfish]

Curtman Curtman:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

They're moving the opposite direction here in BC. I wouldn't be surprised to see alcohol and tobacco prohibition get raised in the next five years.

This is interesting.. Vancouver seems to be the epicenter of the marijuana legalization movement. You're saying the pendulum is about to swing back? I doubt that, the medicinal marijuana issue has removed most of the taboo from the discussion. We just watched California vote 54% to 46% against legalization. I think in Canada we're probably over the tipping point in most places.

The laid back west coast is a bit of a myth in my opinion. I've never heard of any serious move towards legalization. There's a strong activist underground here, but it's just that--an underground.

Couple that with the strictest alcohol regulation in North America, as well as the highest prices. And tobacco's days are numbered, not just in BC, but in Canada, the way things are going.

[Curtman]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The laid back west coast is a bit of a myth in my opinion. I've never heard of any serious move towards legalization. There's a strong activist underground here, but it's just that--an underground.

Couple that with the strictest alcohol regulation in North America, as well as the highest prices. And tobacco's days are numbered, not just in BC, but in Canada, the way things are going.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

And tobacco's days are numbered, not just in BC, but in Canada, the way things are going.

In California the irony of the hate-fest against tobacco is that a pile of social programs are funded by dwindling tobacco taxes and now those programs (like pre-school) are being strangled with no hope of additional funds from an already deficit-riddled budget.

It's close to $5 a pack in California these days with about $4 of that being taxes.

Imagine soon they'll have ads from Marlboro:

Light up a Marlboro! Do it for the children!