[Sapio]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Sapio Sapio:

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. "stories". Most of it is stories, but some of the stuff he describes fits with the Minoan (for example). Plus, we do know that island in the Mediterranean have been attacked by earthquakes, volcanoes and waves. He took it to far and much was add to make it look great than it was. Yes, there was likely some Egypt in there was as well. So off the whole story, which may have been loses base on a oral tail, maybe only 3% base in history, but that 3% is still valuable to history's.

As for Homer, he have more evidence to support, but a lot of it was made up as well.

Sorry bud, but Plato specifically referred to Atlantis being beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. It ain't referred to as being in the Mediterranean. Other people who make up stuff beyond what Plato made up doesn't provide additional evidence.

And no, "there was likely some Egypt in there" doesn't bolster your point. Plato said that Socrates was speaking with an Egyptian priest about Atlantis. That's the reference point.

Atlantis isn't real. Neither is Darth Vader, Harry Potter, the Matrix, that teleporting Black Fortress from Krull, flux-capacitors or even Dr. Gregory House. The jury is out on oscillation overthrusters.

First of all, I have never said Atlantis was real. I have no idea were you got that form. 2nd Plato said the pillars of Hercules. There is a difference of scholarship of what that is, some say Straits of Gibraltar some say the near the Greek islands. Yes, he spoke with an Egyptian priest, but Minoan did a lot of trade with Egypt. I'm not, nor have I ever said that Atlantis was real I'm say that a small part of the myth is tied up in the larger historical narrative of the ancient Mediterranean world.

[Dayseed]

Sapio Sapio:

Dayseed Dayseed:

Sapio Sapio:

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. "stories". Most of it is stories, but some of the stuff he describes fits with the Minoan (for example). Plus, we do know that island in the Mediterranean have been attacked by earthquakes, volcanoes and waves. He took it to far and much was add to make it look great than it was. Yes, there was likely some Egypt in there was as well. So off the whole story, which may have been loses base on a oral tail, maybe only 3% base in history, but that 3% is still valuable to history's.

As for Homer, he have more evidence to support, but a lot of it was made up as well.

Sorry bud, but Plato specifically referred to Atlantis being beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. It ain't referred to as being in the Mediterranean. Other people who make up stuff beyond what Plato made up doesn't provide additional evidence.

And no, "there was likely some Egypt in there" doesn't bolster your point. Plato said that Socrates was speaking with an Egyptian priest about Atlantis. That's the reference point.

Atlantis isn't real. Neither is Darth Vader, Harry Potter, the Matrix, that teleporting Black Fortress from Krull, flux-capacitors or even Dr. Gregory House. The jury is out on oscillation overthrusters.

First of all, I have never said Atlantis was real. I have no idea were you got that form. 2nd Plato said the pillars of Hercules. There is a difference of scholarship of what that is, some say Straits of Gibraltar some say the near the Greek islands. Yes, he spoke with an Egyptian priest, but Minoan did a lot of trade with Egypt. I'm not, nor have I ever said that Atlantis was real I'm say that a small part of the myth is tied up in the larger historical narrative of the ancient Mediterranean world.

Then what the hell is your point? Why bring up anything else if there is but a single mythmaker? If somebody pointed out that they thought they had found a lightsabre, bringing up that Family Guy spoofed Star Wars is all you've accomplished.

[Mustang1]

Sapio Sapio:

Dayseed Dayseed:

Sapio Sapio:

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. "stories". Most of it is stories, but some of the stuff he describes fits with the Minoan (for example). Plus, we do know that island in the Mediterranean have been attacked by earthquakes, volcanoes and waves. He took it to far and much was add to make it look great than it was. Yes, there was likely some Egypt in there was as well. So off the whole story, which may have been loses base on a oral tail, maybe only 3% base in history, but that 3% is still valuable to history's.

As for Homer, he have more evidence to support, but a lot of it was made up as well.

Sorry bud, but Plato specifically referred to Atlantis being beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. It ain't referred to as being in the Mediterranean. Other people who make up stuff beyond what Plato made up doesn't provide additional evidence.

And no, "there was likely some Egypt in there" doesn't bolster your point. Plato said that Socrates was speaking with an Egyptian priest about Atlantis. That's the reference point.

Atlantis isn't real. Neither is Darth Vader, Harry Potter, the Matrix, that teleporting Black Fortress from Krull, flux-capacitors or even Dr. Gregory House. The jury is out on oscillation overthrusters.

First of all, I have never said Atlantis was real. I have no idea were you got that form. 2nd Plato said the pillars of Hercules. There is a difference of scholarship of what that is, some say Straits of Gibraltar some say the near the Greek islands. Yes, he spoke with an Egyptian priest, but Minoan did a lot of trade with Egypt. I'm not, nor have I ever said that Atlantis was real I'm say that a small part of the myth is tied up in the larger historical narrative of the ancient Mediterranean world.

Actually, the Pillars of Hercules ARE the Straits of Gibraltar (what scholars says they aren't?) and you're still trying to force other epochs into Plato's account (like the Minoan). This is a fictional tale. Plato's Atlantis exists only in Timaeus and Critias. That's the only history at play here.

[Sapio]

May point is that Plato whether he made up the myth himself or got it from another sources must have used some part of history in it creation. There is no way he dreamed up a 100% new world and new people. This happens all the time in the creation of myth and fantasy. For example the Lord of the Rings is based in mid-evil ideas or Homers works are set in Bronze age Greece. Classic studies scholars are interested in what Plato know of history and myth how they were merged together. After all history is not the past, history is how the past is unperturbed today. Thus, the story of Atlantis is an important historical source on 4th century literature and myth. It should be written out as just some myth so guy made up, but needs to have litigate scholarship to fully understand its context and shape in the wider study of Plato works and classical world.

[Dayseed]

Sapio Sapio:

May point is that Plato whether he made up the myth himself or got it from another sources must have used some part of history in it creation. There is no way he dreamed up a 100% new world and new people. This happens all the time in the creation of myth and fantasy. For example the Lord of the Rings is based in mid-evil ideas or Homers works are set in Bronze age Greece. Classic studies scholars are interested in what Plato know of history and myth how they were merged together. After all history is not the past, history is how the past is unperturbed today. Thus, the story of Atlantis is an important historical source on 4th century literature and myth. It should be written out as just some myth so guy made up, but needs to have litigate scholarship to fully understand its context and shape in the wider study of Plato works and classical world.

So historians should go looking for truth in Robin Hood, King Arthur and Sinbad?

Most of your stuff is pompous fluff, but I'll spot you one thing, Schlieman believed that Troy existed.

[Mustang1]

Sapio Sapio:

May point is that Plato whether he made up the myth himself or got it from another sources must have used some part of history in it creation. There is no way he dreamed up a 100% new world and new people. This happens all the time in the creation of myth and fantasy. For example the Lord of the Rings is based in mid-evil ideas or Homers works are set in Bronze age Greece. Classic studies scholars are interested in what Plato know of history and myth how they were merged together. After all history is not the past, history is how the past is unperturbed today. Thus, the story of Atlantis is an important historical source on 4th century literature and myth. It should be written out as just some myth so guy made up, but needs to have litigate scholarship to fully understand its context and shape in the wider study of Plato works and classical world.

Huh? Plato made it up. It's not based on historical reality. There's no sunken continent beyond the Pillars of Hercules (I noticed you conveniently forgot to mention these "scholars" that don't think its the modern Straits of Gibraltar), there's no enlightened founding civilization - as he described it - at 9600 BCE and any credible historian doesn't equate it with Homeric works - which were common property of Greeks and possessed collaborating contemporary evidence - because it's the work of ONE man, ONE source and its narrative (not spots, parts, or sections) isn't repeated in ANY contemporary works.

It's not the Minoan culture, it's not ancient Egypt, it's not Anatolia it's not historical. It's a tale put forth by Plato (one which is illustrative of political discourse), and only Plato, and unless you're going to invoke Edgar Cayce next, its historicity is, without question, weak.

[hurley_108]

[Sapio]

I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.

[fifeboy]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Much like has just happened to that Mexican island where they blamed the CIA for it's dissapearance.

No why did you have to go and bring in the supernatural?

[Mustang1]

Sapio Sapio:

I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.

Just because Plato mentions historical realities amongst his fiction doesn't mean its any less fanciful. Alan Moore makes mention of Richard Nixon in The Watchmen, but that doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan lives on Mars. I saw F-22 Raptors in Transformers. They're real! They exist! Not Optimus Prime. And you'll notice no one is out looking for the Allspark just because its in a movie with Chevy Camoros and said movie was the creation of the Plato of our time, Michael Bay.

Plato was using Atlantis as a tool for discourse. That's it. Yes, it has intrinsic cultural value, but not archaeologically. And not historically.

[Proculation]

You seem to know Plato, Mustang. Was he a party animal ?

[Mustang1]

Proculation Proculation:

You seem to know Plato, Mustang. Was he a party animal ?

Would it matter?

[Bacardi4206]

fifeboy fifeboy:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Much like has just happened to that Mexican island where they blamed the CIA for it's dissapearance.

No why did you have to go and bring in the supernatural?

Big discussion on myths above, seemed a good fit.

[Sapio]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Sapio Sapio:

I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.

Just because Plato mentions historical realities amongst his fiction doesn't mean its any less fanciful. Alan Moore makes mention of Richard Nixon in The Watchmen, but that doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan lives on Mars. I saw F-22 Raptors in Transformers. They're real! They exist! Not Optimus Prime. And you'll notice no one is out looking for the Allspark just because its in a movie with Chevy Camoros and said movie was the creation of the Plato of our time, Michael Bay.

Plato was using Atlantis as a tool for discourse. That's it. Yes, it has intrinsic cultural value, but not archaeologically. And not historically.

Yes it has historically value for us, about Plato's time. That all I have ever said.

[Mustang1]

Sapio Sapio:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Sapio Sapio:

I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.

Just because Plato mentions historical realities amongst his fiction doesn't mean its any less fanciful. Alan Moore makes mention of Richard Nixon in The Watchmen, but that doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan lives on Mars. I saw F-22 Raptors in Transformers. They're real! They exist! Not Optimus Prime. And you'll notice no one is out looking for the Allspark just because its in a movie with Chevy Camoros and said movie was the creation of the Plato of our time, Michael Bay.

Plato was using Atlantis as a tool for discourse. That's it. Yes, it has intrinsic cultural value, but not archaeologically. And not historically.

Yes it has historically value for us, about Plato's time. That all I have ever said.