[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

But, there really isn't much that provinces can download debt to cities. AFAIK cities can't run deficits. City funding comes mostly from property taxes. All that provinces can do is contribute less to infrastructure projects than they might otherwise. Can't make cities take on healthcare and education, the portfolios that take the big bucks. Whereas the feds way reduced their share of healthcare costs, then and they are doing it again now.

Dunno how it works in BC but Boards of Education in Ontario still get a significant amount of funding from municipal property taxes.
The province also restructured the system so that municipalities bore greater responsibility for social services, on top of shifting the burden of social housing from being a provincial responsibility to a municipal one. But since both programs are helped with funding from the province, both programs are affected when the province buts back.
The province also put a cap on property taxes for commercial properties, pretty much leaving the burden of any municipal tax hikes on the shoulders of home owners. Which is exactly what happened the last time.
So in Ontario anyway, when the fed cuts back on transfer payments, and Queen's Park cuts back on theirs, the municipalities, homeowners in particular, real feel it.

[bootlegga]

Caelon Caelon:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Ontario better gets its act in gear or they are going to have to resort to drastic measures like the federal government did during the 90s.

A lot of Martin's success in reducing the federal deficit was due to decreasing transfer payments. Effectively there was a debt transfer from the federal to the provincial level. So who would the provincial government download their debt to? The municipalities?

My point was the austerity that Ontario is going to face is going to be just as harsh the one the feds faced. What is Ontario debt at now? $250 billion or something? And the current government is adding $10-20 billion a year! That is simply unsustainable.

I don't have a problem with debt, especially in times like this when interest is low, but when one province's debt approaches 50% of the federal government's debt, it's insane.

The Ontario government needs to live within their means. How they do it is up to Ontarians (?), but it needs to happen and happen soon.

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

So in Ontario anyway, when the fed cuts back on transfer payments, and Queen's Park cuts back on theirs, the municipalities, homeowners in particular, real feel it.

In the end it all comes out of one pocket - the taxpayer, no matter which govt you're talking about. The Libs cut taxes and reduced transfer payments, in BC at least, once the Libs got in they did the same thing. So people wind up paying for services at the municipal level instead. Personally I think progressive income taxes are the better way for govt to get their money.

But people fall into the trap of thinking govt spending comes from different sources - it's either us, the corps or royalties. We pay for corporate taxes with our purchases anyway.

[2Cdo]

Thanos Thanos:

I doubt there's much of a plan for the OntLibs to do much more than blame Stephen Harper and Alberta for everything.

To be honest from the start of McGuintys reign it was blame Harris, then when Harper became PM it shifted to him and Alberta. Wynne is carrying on with the same "It's not our fault" bullshit. Ontario is well on their way to the cellar and it's going to take some tough decisions and cuts to stop the descent. I don't think the Libs have the parts to make those decisions.

[Thanos]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Thanos Thanos:

I doubt there's much of a plan for the OntLibs to do much more than blame Stephen Harper and Alberta for everything.

To be honest from the start of McGuintys reign it was blame Harris, then when Harper became PM it shifted to him and Alberta. Wynne is carrying on with the same "It's not our fault" bullshit. Ontario is well on their way to the cellar and it's going to take some tough decisions and cuts to stop the descent. I don't think the Libs have the parts to make those decisions.

Since Mike Harris there hasn't been much evidence of the Ontario government taking any responsibility at all for their own economic problems. There probably wasn't a lot they could do anyway about the massive industrial outsourcing that hit central Canada and the US rust belt in the 1990's and 2000's. Layering onto the overall misery and malaise with their unending series of tax hikes and wage increases for unionized employees certainly hasn't made things any easier though, especially not for the remaining businesses that are paying the cost for these stupid ideas.

At this stage I doubt that much can be done to fix it. The Libs seem to have found the winning formula by appealing to the provincial union workers and engaging in grovelling appeasement (e.g. Caledonia) to every special interest group that whines the most or threatens the most disruption. The Tories have a massive problem in the leaders they keep choosing who seem to always do something to destroy their own chances in the elections. As more and more average Ontarians leave the place to come out west it increases the percentage of radicals, appeasers, and tax/spend hikers left behind which just cements the hold the Liberals have even more.

Normally none of this concerns me. Ontario can do what it wants, even commit economic suicide, if it wants to do so. If the federal Liberals win the government though, with the support of and increasing bitter and increasingly left-wing Ontario, then obviously their first target will be the West (especially Alberta). Too many in Ontario keep believing that it's still their "good ol' days", where they snap their fingers and automatically get what they want (even if it means economic destruction in other parts of the country) whenever they want it. The power balance has changed in a major way though, and they're in for one fuck of a major shock if they think they're going to roll over the West again without a fight like they did back in the Trudeau Sr. era.

[housewife]

Duelin_Dalt Duelin_Dalt:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

To be honest from the start of McGuintys reign it was blame Harris, then when Harper became PM it shifted to him and Alberta. Wynne is carrying on with the same "It's not our fault" bullshit. Ontario is well on their way to the cellar and it's going to take some tough decisions and cuts to stop the descent. I don't think the Libs have the parts to make those decisions.

Leave then. Simple. Move. Grass is greener elsewhere. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Quit talkin, start doin. Happy Trails.

You know so far you are making a good arguement for the fall of the school and sounding very young.

[saturn_656]

Duelin_Dalt Duelin_Dalt:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

To be honest from the start of McGuintys reign it was blame Harris, then when Harper became PM it shifted to him and Alberta. Wynne is carrying on with the same "It's not our fault" bullshit. Ontario is well on their way to the cellar and it's going to take some tough decisions and cuts to stop the descent. I don't think the Libs have the parts to make those decisions.

Leave then. Simple. Move. Grass is greener elsewhere. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Quit talkin, start doin. Happy Trails.

The Ontario Liberals and their unconditional backers are a big part of the problem.

Getting the electorate to understand this is the solution.

Be part of the solution.

[2Cdo]

Duelin_Dalt Duelin_Dalt:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

To be honest from the start of McGuintys reign it was blame Harris, then when Harper became PM it shifted to him and Alberta. Wynne is carrying on with the same "It's not our fault" bullshit. Ontario is well on their way to the cellar and it's going to take some tough decisions and cuts to stop the descent. I don't think the Libs have the parts to make those decisions.

Leave then. Simple. Move. Grass is greener elsewhere. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Quit talkin, start doin. Happy Trails.

Way ahead of you my simple-minded friend. Been out west almost 2 years and have made more than TRIPLE what I made in Ontario. Stay put and enjoy your race to the bottom.

[Thanos]

The solution? Tax the West! tax, Tax, TAX them! Tax them 'til they can't even move! Tax them like a pit bull on a poodle! It's all THEIR fault for the rest of us voting so fucking dumb all the time!

[PluggyRug]

The middle of the road is now filled with cracks and potholes. The clear statement is that Ontario Liberals are dumb enough to vote Liberal, no matter how many billions are wasted on pathetically bad decisions.

[PluggyRug]

Duelin_Dalt Duelin_Dalt:

What bad decisions? Any bad decisions the Liberals may have made would pale by comparison to the decision to fire 100,000 people. Sounds like you're drinking the koolade, finding bad decisions that didn't exist.

Gas plant

Air Ornge

eHealth

Three of the main effups. Just google for the rest.

[housewife]

Duelin_Dalt Duelin_Dalt:

What bad decisions? Any bad decisions the Liberals may have made would pale by comparison to the decision to fire 100,000 people. Sounds like you're drinking the koolade, finding bad decisions that didn't exist.

THEY WERE NOT GOING TO FIRE THEM!

How be we talk about this when your older and can understand

[saturn_656]

Duelin_Dalt Duelin_Dalt:

saturn_656 saturn_656:

The Ontario Liberals and their unconditional backers are a big part of the problem.

Getting the electorate to understand this is the solution.

Be part of the solution.

What is the problem? There is no problem. Life in Ontario is as good as it can get. All this bitching and whining about such minor, menial things. No sense of the big picture and how lucky we are to live in here. Take a tour to Zimbabwe or Jordan or Turkey. The last election was not an endorsement of the Liberals. It was a clear statement that the extremes on either side were unacceptable. What's that saying about the usable part of the road?

Yes, pay no attention to the scandals and the constant hooping Ontarians are getting from their government. Pay no attention to our debt and deficit. Pay no attention to our stalling economy. Pay no attention to our impending credit downgrade.

Everything is just rosy.

You want an avatar? I suggest an Ostrich.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

edit by mod

[2Cdo]

I think its a little bit of number one and number three.