[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Yet the Israelis are always deserving of rocket attacks and the Arabs are always victims. You'd think the West Bank Arabs would be the ones doing the rocket launches against Israeli settlements but it's the Gazans...where Israel pulled out ....who are launching rockets at Israeli towns and villages built in Israel proper.

I don't believe either Ray or I are arguing from a point that Israel deserves what it gets or that the Palestinians are the perpetual victims here. However, this conflict does not exist with a political vacuum only occupied by the Pakestinians. There is room for blame on both sides though it is unlikely to be equal.

[raydan]

Thing is, both sides believe that the other side is to blame for everything and is the aggressor. No one is willing to listen to the other side, let alone compromise. It's been hopeless for decades and will continue to be so for many more. I think we should clear everybody out and start over again.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Curtman Curtman:

$1:

Israel hit by 1st rocket in 3 months

Meanwhile, new settlements announced on average every week and a half.

Poor Israeli victims. If only they realized they do it to themselves.

Poor Curt. If only he realized how utterly clueless he is.

So Curt, did the Israeli's do it to themselves in 1948? How about in 1967? 1973?
And since 1973, it's been primarily the PALs that have been the aggressor.
So to use Curt logic, being attacked and bombed for the better part of 60 years, 40 of those years by the PALs, makes Israel the bad guy in all of this.

I bet you secretly feel sorry for the nazis too.

[andyt]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

funny...those being targeted by the the Gaza terrorists are the people who live in Israel proper. They are not West Bank Settlers. But Every Israeli regardless of age or place of residence is a fair target in your eyes. Using your logic of blaming all for the actions of the government or disparate groups in Canada we can lay the blame for residential school abuse...missing aboriginal women...Phoenix Sinclair at your feet

Oh, come on. If the US started settling people in Canada with US military backing, US built roads that only allow these settlers on them, etc, would you still say the people who live in the US proper bear no responsiblity? This is government policy. If Israel removed their protection from the settlers, then you'd have a point. Of course then the settlers wouldn't last long.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yeah, blaming the victim. Same thing.

Israel:

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. What's the solution? There are only 3 possible long-term outcomes that I can envision:
1. Palestine is granted nationhood, independent from Israel, so that Israel can maintain itself as a Jewish state;
2. Irsael grants Palestinians equal citizenship within a united, bi-faith state, thereby conceding that, given that Palestinians will significantly outnumber Jews in a decade, the Israeli government will become dominated by Palestinians (just like what happened in South Africa);
3. Israel becomes an apartheid state, just like South Africa used to be, suffering the disdain of the global community (embargoed, etc).

So which is it going to be?

Eggs Ackley So far Isreale seems to be going for door number 3.

You forgot the 4th option. Israel pushes all the Palestinians into the Jordan, making Samara and Judea ethnically pure once again. Hallalujah, Jaysus can then return to rule the world.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

funny...those being targeted by the the Gaza terrorists are the people who live in Israel proper. They are not West Bank Settlers. But Every Israeli regardless of age or place of residence is a fair target in your eyes. Using your logic of blaming all for the actions of the government or disparate groups in Canada we can lay the blame for residential school abuse...missing aboriginal women...Phoenix Sinclair at your feet

Oh, come on. If the US started settling people in Canada with US military backing, US built roads that only allow these settlers on them, etc, would you still say the people who live in the US proper bear no responsiblity? This is government policy. If Israel removed their protection from the settlers, then you'd have a point. Of course then the settlers wouldn't last long.

Well, if Canada had been lobbing rockets and using suicide bombers on US civilians for about 40 years, you might have a point.
The PALs were always more than happy to jump on the dog-pile when Israel was attacked by multiple nations.
I guess the lesson here is, don't cry like a bitch when someone pounds the shit out of you after you've sucker punched them, more than once!

[andyt]

So the settlers are retaliation for the rockets? Doesn't seem like a smart move to me. Just ensures perpetuation of the cycle. Intervene militarily all Isreal wants to protect itself, but taking the land is continued agression and won't make for peace. You've got to offer the Palestinians a carrot as well as using the stick. Give them something to lose - ie a state. If that state then allows attacks on Israel, Israel would have the whold world behind it if it attacked that state.

[Lemmy]

Expanding settlements into Palestinian areas seems to mean that, from my 3 scenario list from the last page, the Israelis are outright rejecting #1 (the two state solution). If they expand Jewish settlement, the Israelis are pretty much ensuring that the future of the region is apartheid. If that's the case, then we, the international community, have a moral obligation to treat Israel in the exact same manner that we treated the South African regime in the 1980s.

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

You've got to offer the Palestinians a carrot as well as using the stick. Give them something to lose - ie a state. If that state then allows attacks on Israel, Israel would have the whold world behind it if it attacked that state.

What the fuck do think Gaza was, an admission of defeat ?


No, it was an opportunity given away for free in the hope of something better.

It worked out so well, there is no need to replay that kind of stupidity again.

[BartSimpson]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I guess the lesson here is, don't cry like a bitch when someone pounds the shit out of you after you've sucker punched them, more than once!

That advice applies far beyond just this topic.

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Expanding settlements into Palestinian areas seems to mean that, from my 3 scenario list from the last page, the Israelis are outright rejecting #1 (the two state solution). If they expand Jewish settlement, the Israelis are pretty much ensuring that the future of the region is apartheid. If that's the case, then we, the international community, have a moral obligation to treat Israel in the exact same manner that we treated the South African regime in the 1980s.

Agreed. The US dances around this fact (Canada has stopped dancing). If Israel retreated behind '67 borders they would have my full support. I would deem any military action they took to defend themselves from attacks perfectly legitimatel, including occupying Palestinian land militarily as needed, ie temporarily. But as long as they persue expansionist policies they have no claim to being victims. Sad to see them copy the actions of their former oppressors (Nazis) in so many ways.

[ShepherdsDog]

Why was the West Bank originally occupied Andy?

[andyt]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Why was the West Bank originally occupied Andy?

To take it away from Jordan. So fine, if Israel wants to claim right of conquest, let them do so. There's just the thorny question of all those Palestinians living there and having lived there for many generations. Does Israel really want to engage in ethnic cleansing? If not, as Lemmy pointed out, they's be doomed by demographics, or they could try going the apartheid way - good luck with that.

Maybe Israel could do what it admitted it was doing to Ethiopinan Jewish immigratns - giving them Depo Provera without their consent to reduce their birthrate. I think that's frowned upon too, tho, and they's stopped doing it to the Ethiopians. Israel is caught in a tough situation, but they're not handling it very intelligently at the moment. As I say, giving the Palestinians a carrot seems like the best option. We already know Israel has the stick and isn't afraid to use it.

[ShepherdsDog]

And why did they take it away from Jordan? Because the Jordanians kept attacking them . It was seized during a defensive action not an invasion

Gazans were essentially given their carrot. Israel completely withdrew from the strip yet they continued to lob rockets and raids into Israel. As for an apartheid state... Israeli Arabs are quite happy with their life in Israel for the most part. The comparison to Afrikaan dominated RSA is invalid as Israeli Arabs sit in the Knesset and enjoy freedoms only dreamed of by other Arabs.....the exact same freedoms every Israeli citizen has Jew or non Jew.

In fact some(not Bedouins or the the Druze) are even exempt from mandatory military service although thousands of the volunteer for service in the IDF. They are usually found policing the Arab settlements in occupied territories.....the ones you see shooting the rock throwers and Molotov tossers on TV.