[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I don't think they're guilty before being proven - I think that between the video and the Braidwood Inquiry - we have a pretty good idea of what really happened. They acted rashly and it cost a man his life. There should be consequences for that. Lord knows if I acted rashly and it cost someone their life, I'd pay for it.

As I said, from what I've seen and read, those four originally made statements about the incident - then changed them later once they realized they couldn't hide behind the blue wall.

Of course, those four will get lawyers (probably the very same ones they bitch about that criminals use to get off) and odds are they will get off. They may be vindicated, but they aren't innocent IMHO.

1 guy pulls the trigger on the taser and they all go down as being the bad guys? It's sad that you make the other 3 suffer for the act of 1 officer. The one officer I know personally and has been a family friend since childhood and wasn't the officer that pulled the trigger.

Let's be honest, this has little to do with alleged inconsistent notes and statements, this is about pinning a so called "murder by cop" on 4 officers....3 of which had nothing to do with the tasering.

I hope for your sake, boots, that you're never accused of anything because you will see what your type of attitude does to a family and a person.

In the end, there are no consequences to these officers for the man dying. That's sealed and done. The trials coming up are relating to perjury and have nothing to do with who's at fault for the death.

Sure, only one guy pulled the trigger - but all four went in there looking for a confrontation - you can see it in their body language as they walk into the terminal. Within what, maybe 20 seconds of their arrival, they tasered Dziekanski? Not one of them made anything more than a token effort to calm him down or defuse the situation.

As police officers, that is their job - to defuse the situation if possible, to use force if necessary. They almost automatically went on the offensive. If brandishing a stapler or swearing is akin to assault, then there are millions of people around the globe due a tasering.

To top it off, all four held him down while he died - then stood around waiting for the paramedics to show up. Not one of them knew CPR? Really? Even I know CPR. That's negligence IMO at the very least.

There is no way that any of those four are totally 'innocent' in Dzienkanski's death.

I do not think they should be charged with murder (after all, there was no way for them to know about his weak heart, strenuous travel or other extenuating circumstances that led to him dying in YVR), but manslaughter or negligent homicide would probably be fair charges. But as you noted, they won't even be charged with that, which is an indictment on the RCMP and "police over-sight" here in Canada.

If that situation had been four civilians (or even four security guards) doing that to someone - they would ALL go to jail - and for something far more serious than perjury.

That's my point here - just as it was in the G20 thread - it's a double standard. Cops should be just as accountable for their actions as us civilians are - but in many cases they aren't - they receive far less punishment for offences than civilians do.

Guess what - I have been accused of BS before (even though my innocence was later proven) - the difference is I didn't have the blue code of silence to hide behind like these four do.

And you know when I have made big mistakes - like an at fault accident or a speeding ticket - I stood and took it like a man and admitted I was wrong, instead of lying and obfuscating like these four did.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Sure, only one guy pulled the trigger - but all four went in there looking for a confrontation - you can see it in their body language as they walk into the terminal. Within what, maybe 20 seconds of their arrival, they tasered Dziekanski? Not one of them made anything more than a token effort to calm him down or defuse the situation.

That's what police do. Confront people who are doing something they shouldn't be doing. Did you want them to go in, give the guy a big hug and a kiss on the lips?

I admit, they should have done a better job in defusing the situation, but hindsight is always 20/20 and neither of us are officers. Had the man taken off and run through the airport hurting people or property there would be calls for "why didn't the offers do more".

bootlegga bootlegga:

To top it off, all four held him down while he died - then stood around waiting for the paramedics to show up. Not one of them knew CPR? Really? Even I know CPR. That's negligence IMO at the very least.

I agree. They should have administered emergency first aid.

However, you don't throw 3 people in jail for not administering CPR or having inconsistent notes. You discipline them. Sure, it was a douche move, but you can't throw people in jail for being a douche.

I think the officer that used the taser too quickly should be held responsible for excessive use of force and get back to living his life.

[Brenda]

$1:

However, you don't throw 3 people in jail for not administering CPR

I don't know about that, since they are cops...
I thought it was the duty of a cop to serve the public and not doing that, not giving CPR purposely, could be seen as manslaughter or something... Cops are not held by the same standards the public is, nor should they be.

[OnTheIce]

martin14 martin14:

Yes, your friend got away with murder, and he knows it, or he should.
Maybe he will team up with this reject from Edmunchuk; they can train
him up in the finer points of killing people.
He can show them how to have a good bang while the taxpayer pays for all.
They seem to be kindred spirits.

You're an idiot.

Holding a guy down while other officers cuff someone isn't murder. If a citizen comes over to help the officers during a struggle and the suspect dies, does he get charged with murder?

Your comparing completely different scenarios with the illusion that they are one and the same.

[martin14]

awwwwww, when all else fails, go for the personal sipe... how nice


So let me ask you this:

Why did your friend stand around waiting for the ambulance for 15 minutes,
instead of at least trying to make an attempt to save Dziejanski ?

Checking stories already ?

Too busy confiscating evidence from cellphones ?

[OnTheIce]

martin14 martin14:

awwwwww, when all else fails, go for the personal sipe... how nice


So let me ask you this:

Why did your friend stand around waiting for the ambulance for 15 minutes,
instead of at least trying to make an attempt to save Dziejanski ?

Checking stories already ?

Too busy confiscating evidence from cellphones ?

When all else fails? I'm not the guy throwing around laughable remarks like "murderer" and you're the one who wants to compare a robbery to an arrest



As for waiting around, as I said above, they should have attempted emergency CPR. However, that doesn't make them "murderers" as you claim, hence the justified insult thrown your way.

[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

hence the justified insult . . .

There is no such thing.

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

hence the justified insult . . .

There is no such thing.

Well we're all guilty of that, even you, Caleb. Or did you mean there's no justification for hurling the first insult, replying in kind is fine? In that case, it would be nice if we had an insult meter that raised a flag when the first one was hurled in a thread.

[andyt]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

martin14 martin14:

awwwwww, when all else fails, go for the personal sipe... how nice

When all else fails? I'm not the guy throwing around laughable remarks like "murderer" and you're the one who wants to compare a robbery to an arrest



As for waiting around, as I said above, they should have attempted emergency CPR. However, that doesn't make them "murderers" as you claim, hence the justified insult thrown your way.

Let's see if you can follow along, OTI. Martin didn't call you a murderer. But you made it personal. Can you understand the difference?

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

hence the justified insult . . .

There is no such thing.

Well we're all guilty of that, even you, Caleb. Or did you mean there's no justification for hurling the first insult, replying in kind is fine? In that case, it would be nice if we had an insult meter that raised a flag when the first one was hurled in a thread.

No Andy. I might make light of someone's opinion or persepctive, but I never have hurled a personal insult at them. Not even at you.

[andyt]

Well, I can't prove you wrong. I've certainly felt insulted by you, but maybe that's just you making light of their opinion.

So, how about an example - how would OTI have made light of Martin's opinion without a personal insult. I'm not sure I see the distinction. You mean like "your opinion is stupid" vs "you are stupid" They seem pretty similar to me - now go ahead and make light of it.

[OnTheIce]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

No Andy. I might make light of someone's opinion or persepctive, but I never have hurled a personal insult at them. Not even at you.

Good on you...but I don't feel the need to pussy-foot around when someone says something extremely stupid.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

Let's see if you can follow along, OTI. Martin didn't call you a murderer. But you made it personal. Can you understand the difference?

I don't give a flying fuck whether or not he called me anything. That was an idiotic comment. Plain and simple.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

Well, I can't prove you wrong. I've certainly felt insulted by you, but maybe that's just you making light of their opinion.

So, how about an example - how would OTI have made light of Martin's opinion without a personal insult. I'm not sure I see the distinction. You mean like "your opinion is stupid" vs "you are stupid" They seem pretty similar to me - now go ahead and make light of it.

You can't prove me wrong as I have made a point of never saying anything like 'you are ____'. Always 'that is ____'. If I find myslef approaching the 'Dark Side' I delete the comment I was making and come back in a hour. If you can prove me wrong, I'll happily apoligise, as I never ever mean to personally insult anyone. (Spammers not included)

It's not my responsibility how you percieve my comments, it's just my own self respect that guides me to never break the 'ad hominem' rule of debate. It's never personal.

OTI could simply adopt the same attitude, and not take offense where Martin offered none. Rebutting Martin's opinion is easy after that, as no one has been convicted of murder in the Dzienkanski incident, so no one is a 'murderer'. Incorrect adjective. Did they get away with murder? That's a matter of opinion.

[OnTheIce]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

OTI could simply adopt the same attitude, and not take offense where Martin offered none. Rebutting Martin's opinion is easy after that, as no one has been convicted of murder in the Dzienkanski incident, so no one is a 'murderer'. Incorrect adjective. Did they get away with murder? That's a matter of opinion.

When someone makes a stupid remark about a friend of yours and calls him a murderer, we'll see how warm and fuzzy you are.