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Posts: 8851
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:27 pm
romanP romanP: Yogi Yogi: JustKate JustKate: I hope for the same. Just said on CTV that he will be evaluated every year. WTF? What's your preferred evaluation schedule? Oh, right, never. Harvest his organs for donation, send his remains to the body farm where he will be evaluated much more often and thereby actually contributes to society.WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN...!That's your idea of a mature response? You've got a lot to work on.[/quote] You just figure that out now??? Ya know what the really, really, really scary part is? I live by myself and no one is monitoring me!!!
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:28 pm
Yogi Yogi: bootlegga bootlegga: Frankly, I'd like to think Canada is a tad more civilized than Iran... I'll 'hazard a guess' here. Irans rate of recidivism hovers somewhere around the 'high 0 mark'! Our way ain't working!Iran also imprisons people for listening to the wrong kind of music or dressing the wrong way.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:32 pm
Akhenaten Akhenaten: This thread is so far removed from the base issue. That's because the people who are demanding absurd and murderous solutions have no rational interest or concept of justice, they just want bloodsport to masturbate with. They are willfully ignorant and will belittle and dehumanise everything they do not understand.
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Posts: 8851
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:33 pm
romanP romanP: Yogi Yogi: I have shown my willingness to offer compassion where none is due via lethal injection.
Compassion isn't something you conveniently only give to the people you like. Compassion means you have the tough job of loving your neighbour as well as your enemy. You are right. 'Compassion is not a convenience'! Not a tough job at all. I like my neighbors, my 'enemies' know well enough to steer clear of me, and compassion is given where compassion is due!
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Posts: 15102
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:41 pm
romanP romanP: Akhenaten Akhenaten: This thread is so far removed from the base issue. That's because the people who are demanding absurd and murderous solutions have no rational interest or concept of justice, they just want bloodsport to masturbate with. You're truly an idiot.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:43 pm
Akhenaten Akhenaten: $1: So what I was saying is that just because he was picked up by police for odd behavior, and diagnosed with schizophrenia, was not grounds to lock him up indefinitely. No but it is grounds to keep him under observation to decern if he should be 'locked up' indefinitely.... You can't just lock someone up based on suspicion that they might do something in the future. Some form of violence has to be committed before that can happen. Legally, the system has no right to keep anyone in a mental hospital or prison if they have not presented a clear and present danger to other people. $1: And not 'odd behaviour' (there's that obtuseness again) but rather behaviour which could have posed a risk to either himself or others. The only thing he did to end up in a hospital the first time was make a lot of poor decisions that only hurt himself. Making poor decisions is not illegal until those decisions harm other people.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:54 pm
uwish uwish: romanP romanP: Have you ever been to a psychiatrist? Every one that I've ever been to has shoved pills on me as a knee-jerk reaction, when I didn't really need them. yup and all doctors shovel pills down your throat ever stop to think if you saw a shrink and he was recommending drugs that maybe it was you and your reasoning that was faulty and not the doctors? Ah, so you think you know better than me about what was going on in my life at the time, do you? I can tell you with rational certainty that my mother pressured these doctors to put me on pills, because they all saw that I did not really need them, and told me so, but gave them to me anyway. I can also tell you with rational certainty that it was my mother who pressured these doctors to put me on pills because she told me herself that the answers to all of my problems were to take more pills. I should also point out that my mother is not a psychiatrist, she just likes to pretend she is.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:55 pm
Yogi Yogi: romanP romanP: That's your idea of a mature response? You've got a lot to work on. You just figure that out now??? Ya know what the really, really, really scary part is? I live by myself and no one is monitoring me!!!You're the one that just accused hurley of being immature for calling bullshit on you. Physician, heal thyself.
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Akhenaten
Forum Elite
Posts: 1734
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:57 pm
romanP romanP: Akhenaten Akhenaten: $1: So what I was saying is that just because he was picked up by police for odd behavior, and diagnosed with schizophrenia, was not grounds to lock him up indefinitely. No but it is grounds to keep him under observation to decern if he should be 'locked up' indefinitely.... You can't just lock someone up based on suspicion that they might do something in the future. Some form of violence has to be committed before that can happen. Legally, the system has no right to keep anyone in a mental hospital or prison if they have not presented a clear and present danger to other people. Well yes actually you can. And he did commit 'some form of violence', read the article. Don't debate me, debate the psychiatrists who wanted and had every legal right to do exactly that: 'lock him up' on the suspicion that, based on his mental illness, he could cause harm to themselves or others. Don't forget: they often hurt themselves as well. Considering they don't often 'lock them up' I think that's important in this case. romanP romanP: Akhenaten Akhenaten: And not 'odd behaviour' (there's that obtuseness again) but rather behaviour which could have posed a risk to either himself or others. The only thing he did to end up in a hospital the first time was make a lot of poor decisions that only hurt himself. Making poor decisions is not illegal until those decisions harm other people. ...yes, and that's exactly why these rules are in place. In case you are a danger to either yourself or others. You consider the attitude of those who want to kill/execute him to be extreme. I do as well. However his attitude that is being floated around like, "So what's the big deal?", and "this almost never happens" ( which is of course baloney if by "this" you mean schizophrenics that are mis-diagnosed as harmless. That happens all too much.) is equally a rather extreme case of denial of a problem that isn't any less of a problem simply because it's getting a lot of sensationalist news today. Again the truth is closer to the middle. Ahk
Last edited by Akhenaten on Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:57 pm
Yogi Yogi: romanP romanP: Yogi Yogi: I have shown my willingness to offer compassion where none is due via lethal injection.
Compassion isn't something you conveniently only give to the people you like. Compassion means you have the tough job of loving your neighbour as well as your enemy. You are right. 'Compassion is not a convenience'! Not a tough job at all. I like my neighbors, my 'enemies' know well enough to steer clear of me, and compassion is given where compassion is due!No, you still don't get it. Compassion is not something you conveniently only choose to give to people who you think "deserve" it. Compassion is something you give to everyone or no one.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:01 pm
RUEZ RUEZ: romanP romanP: Akhenaten Akhenaten: This thread is so far removed from the base issue. That's because the people who are demanding absurd and murderous solutions have no rational interest or concept of justice, they just want bloodsport to masturbate with. You're truly an idiot. RUEZ, RUEZ. You poor, incompetent dummy. Do you really want to get into another argument with me? Let me tell you how it'll go. I'll ask you why you said that. You'll come up with some irrational, nonsensical bullshit and I'll tell you how it's irrational, nonsensical bullshit. Then you'll deny that you said it in the first place and declare yourself the "winner". It happens every time. You should probably stop while you misguidedly think you have the upper hand. But if you really want to give it a go, let's do it. Why does the text you quoted make you think I'm an idiot?
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Posts: 15102
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:08 pm
romanP romanP: RUEZ, RUEZ. You poor, incompetent dummy. Do you really want to get into another argument with me? Let me tell you how it'll go. I'll ask you why you said that. You'll come up with some irrational, nonsensical bullshit and I'll tell you how it's irrational, nonsensical bullshit. Then you'll deny that you said it in the first place and declare yourself the "winner". It happens every time. You should probably stop while you misguidedly think you have the upper hand.
But if you really want to give it a go, let's do it. Why does the text you quoted make you think I'm an idiot?  Whatever you say. You're still an idiot, as only an idiot would have said what you said. If you don't like it, that's not my fault blame your parents.
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Bibbi
Active Member
Posts: 356
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:15 pm
The problem with mental illness is that the patient gets interviewed by all kinds of health care professionals from psychiatrists, physiatrists, rehab specialists, social workers, internists, etc. Because of privacy laws, they are seen in private but what is often taken into account is that the patient most often does not see that he has any problems and tells the professional that he is doing fine. He also often confabulates which means that he makes things up as the interview continues.
Now, a caregiver, parent, spouse, companion, relative etc., if present could tell the health care specialist when the patient is telling the truth or not, but because of privacy laws is not allowed in.
To use an example, a mentally ill person living with his parents saw a physiatrist and told her and another doctor with a straight face how he often took his parents car out for a joy ride, despite the fact that his license was suspended for medical reasons and he was not cognitively capable of driving. The doctors had a fit because they absolutely believed him, despite the fact that he was "pulling their chain" and making it up.
Another mentally ill person told a psychiatrist that he was getting along fine at work. He did not tell him that he could only handle 2 hours per day, required the constant supervision of a rehab support worker, and it was a voluntary placement for which he did not get paid.
My point is that the professionals collect a lot of total misinformation, incomplete information, and imaginative lies from the mentally ill and from that I wonder how many decisions are made.
To put it differently "garbage in" to use part of the saying is used to diagnose the mentally ill and their progress toward recovery or improvement.
Last edited by Bibbi on Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:17 pm
Akhenaten Akhenaten: romanP romanP: Akhenaten Akhenaten: No but it is grounds to keep him under observation to decern if he should be 'locked up' indefinitely.... You can't just lock someone up based on suspicion that they might do something in the future. Some form of violence has to be committed before that can happen. Legally, the system has no right to keep anyone in a mental hospital or prison if they have not presented a clear and present danger to other people. Well yes actually you can. No, you can't. There has to be a motive, a means and an action carried out in order to convict someone and put them in prison. Try to contest this all you want, but the justice system has volumes of text to beat you over the head with and prove you wrong a hundred thousand times. $1: And he did commit 'some form of violence', read the article. I read the article. He didn't do anything violent, he made a string of poor decisions that eventually led to his near death by starvation. $1: Don't debate me, I'm debating you. You're making stupid claims and I'm going to ask you to back them up. Defending the indefensible is an extremely uphill and unwinnable battle, so good luck with that. $1: debate the psychiatrists who wanted and had every legal right to do exactly that: They do not have the right to lock him up based on suspicion alone. If the justice system were allowed to do that, the prisons and courts would be overflowing with people who had never committed a crime but were suspected they might do so in the future. $1: You consider the attitude of those who want to kill/execute him to be extreme. I do as well. However his attitude that is being floated around like, "So what's the big deal?", and "this almost never happens" (which is of course baloney if by "this" you mean schizophrenics that are mis-diagnosed as harmless. That happens all too much.) Fair enough, but as I said before, neither you nor I have a crystal ball to predict the future. You cannot know what a person will do until they have done it, and you cannot put a person in prison for simply making a string of poor decisions that are not considered violence or crime by the legal system. You have to accept that this is not a perfect world, and bad shit will happen because some people who desperately need help will always slip through the cracks. The laws of thermodynamics make it so.
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Posts: 3941
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:20 pm
RUEZ RUEZ: romanP romanP: RUEZ, RUEZ. You poor, incompetent dummy. Do you really want to get into another argument with me? Let me tell you how it'll go. I'll ask you why you said that. You'll come up with some irrational, nonsensical bullshit and I'll tell you how it's irrational, nonsensical bullshit. Then you'll deny that you said it in the first place and declare yourself the "winner". It happens every time. You should probably stop while you misguidedly think you have the upper hand.
But if you really want to give it a go, let's do it. Why does the text you quoted make you think I'm an idiot?  Whatever you say. You're still an idiot, as only an idiot would have said what you said. If you don't like it, that's not my fault blame your parents. Ah, so instead of providing any reason, you resort to accusing me of Trotskyism. I'll ask again, before I PLONK you for the pathetic troll that you are. Why does the text you quoted make you think I'm an idiot?
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