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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:49 pm
 


mtbr mtbr:
Akhenaten Akhenaten:
I'm amazed that it took 12 pages to establish the common knowledge that Toyotas are head and shoulders more reliable than GMC/Chevy.

Absolutely everyone knows this.
Everyone.
Akh


everybody knew that from page 1....including Stemmer :lol:



I did not. I knew the Big 3 are no more or less reliable than 'imports'.

"Everyone" thinks that they know imports are more reliable, but they are incorrect as the JD power survey shows. Just as "Everyone" knows that Lemmings are prone to jump off cliffs. "Everyone" is wrong about that too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:52 pm
 


Caelon Caelon:
Stemmer,

I almost hate to do this to you, but you might want to consider the April 2009 edition of Consumer Reports. Remember the compile their statistics by polling thousands of consumers regarding reliability of each model. The ratings are not based on a sinlge car provided by the manufacturer. Some brands like Ford have some good models, but they also have some very bad models that bring the average of the brand down.

The most reliable brands from best to worst are

Scion
Acura
Honda
Toyota
Lexus
Infiniti
Subuaru
Hyundai
Kia
Lincoln (most rleiable American brand in 9th place)
Mazda
Mini
Nissan
Mercury
Volvo
Ford (notice top 3 American brands all belong to Ford)
Buik (First GM brand is 16th)
Porsche
BMW
Suzuki
Audi
Saab
Chevrolet
Volkswagon
GMC
Mercedes
Jeep
Pontiac
Dodge
Cadilac
Chrysler
Saturn
Land Rover

Now when you combine the brands under the automaker and plot the average test scores for automakers.

Honda 78
Subaru 75
Toyota 74
Mazda 73
Mercedes 72
Nissan 72
etc
etc
Ford 63
Suzuki 60
General Motors 57
Chrysler 48

Oh and that Corvette you really like, although it rates well in performance, has a predicted reliability of Much Worse Than Average. You may decide the shop time and expense is worth the fun factor when you are behind the wheel. Or you may decide that the Better Than Average Porsche Boxster would generate more total smiles due to less shop time.


Ha, even Korea starts higher than the domestics.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:52 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I knew the Big 3 are no more or less reliable than 'imports'

"Everyone" thinks that they know imports are more reliable"


That's not what I said or what you quoted. I said nothing about 'imports'. I said Toyota. What I said, including about Ford has already been independantly established on this thread and the JD survey you cite. Which also clearly shows the imports are more reliable.


Thanks though
Akh


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:54 pm
 


Caelon Caelon:

The most reliable brands from best to worst are

Scion
Acura
Honda
Toyota
Lexus
Infiniti
Subuaru
Hyundai
Kia
Lincoln (most rleiable American brand in 9th place)
Mazda
Mini
Nissan
Mercury
Volvo
Ford (notice top 3 American brands all belong to Ford)


Actualy, if you group that by ownership, Scion, Lexus and Toyota are all the same company;

Infinity is Nissan; Hyundi and Kia are the same company; Lincoln, Mazda, Mercury and Volvo are Ford.

There are only 5 individual companies in that top 10. Only Subaru is it's own company.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:56 pm
 


Akhenaten Akhenaten:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I knew the Big 3 are no more or less reliable than 'imports'

"Everyone" thinks that they know imports are more reliable"


That's not what I said or what you quoted. I said nothing about 'imports'. I said Toyota. What I said, including about Ford has already been independantly established on this thread and the JD survey you cite. Which also clearly shows the imports are more reliable.


Thanks though
Akh


My comments were more toward 'Mtbr' and anyone else who likes the logical fallacy of 'Argument from Authority'.

If the argument begins "Everyone knows that . . " whatever follows is probably wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:58 pm
 


Maybe that's why I put the phrase in quotes....? It was more of a 'if you know what i mean' phrase. I was not asserting that since 'everyone knows' that in itself proves it's true.


Last edited by Akhenaten on Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:59 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Caelon Caelon:

The most reliable brands from best to worst are

Scion
Acura
Honda
Toyota
Lexus
Infiniti
Subuaru
Hyundai
Kia
Lincoln (most rleiable American brand in 9th place)
Mazda
Mini
Nissan
Mercury
Volvo
Ford (notice top 3 American brands all belong to Ford)


Actualy, if you group that by ownership, Scion, Lexus and Toyota are all the same company;

Infinity is Nissan; Hyundi and Kia are the same company; Lincoln, Mazda, Mercury and Volvo are Ford.

There are only 5 individual companies in that top 10. Only Subaru is it's own company.



That is why the next section consolidates the brands under the automaker and Honda/Acura is #1 and Toyota (Lexus, Scion and Toyota) is #3 and GM and Chrysler bring up the rear in 14th and 15th.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:00 pm
 


Does it not remain that the point is, "Screw Chrysler"?





Akh


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:03 pm
 


Akhenaten Akhenaten:
Does it not remain that the point is, "Screw Chrysler"?

Akh


Indeed. I've said it a couple times. I've never owned a Chrysler. Let 'em die.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:05 pm
 


Akhenaten Akhenaten:
Does it not remain that the point is, "Screw Chrysler"?



Well....If you follow the rule that the one at the bottom is least deserving of support then Chrysler could be the sacrificial lamb to make Ford and GM more viable. Without Chrysler the car rental companies will have to buy more GMs and Fords so the increased sales may help them survive.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:08 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Akhenaten Akhenaten:
Does it not remain that the point is, "Screw Chrysler"?

Akh


Indeed. I've said it a couple times. I've never owned a Chrysler. Let 'em die.



I had one, an 81 Lebaron.. worst POS I ever owned.. I'll help kill them :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:27 pm
 


In my job I end up using a lot of rental cars and in the past few years have driven a lot of different domestics and a few Asian based models. The following comments are based on only a few hundered km in a model, but that is more than what most of us get to do on a test drive prior to buying the next family hack. I know a lot of cars I would not buy.

Ford. The Fusion is not bad and for the right price would be OK, but the seats could be better. The Flex looks like a stretched Honda element and the best thing was the Sirius radio.

Chev. The Impala rides nice on the highway, but that is about all you can say for it. The pick ups have the best highway ride over Ford and Dodge. The HHR is almost worse than the PT Cruiser.

Chrysler. The PT Curiser is a toilet that has enough oddities that I refuse to accept them at the rental counter. The 300 is fine in the summer but will get stuck in 2 inches of fresh snow. Even the rental companies admit it is awful to drive in the winter. The Sebring is OK, but I would not want to own one.

Hyundai. Sonatas and Santa Fe's are alright, but the Japanes makes are just that much better.

Mazda: Only had the Mazda 6. The four cylinder is peppy, but the overall feel is below Honda and Toyota.

Nissan. The Maxima is a nice car, but the interior takes a little getting used to. The heated steering wheel is nice in the winter. The Altima is fairly nice and even the four is relatively quick.

Toyota. Only had a Camry Hybred and the fuel economy was phenominal. Nice car on the highway, but the drivers seat was almost American in fit. Not a wrap around bucket.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:06 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
I had one, an 81 Lebaron.. worst POS I ever owned.. I'll help kill them :)


Ug! My G/F had 3 - all Turbos. Used parts from 2 to keep the 3rd running. Till I convinced her to buy something new. She bought a Kia Magentis. From Day 1, it sounded like a Diesel, and they said 'it was normal'. It's till running, after 200K Km, so it must be.

Caelon Caelon:
In my job I end up using a lot of rental cars and in the past few years have driven a lot of different domestics and a few Asian based models. The following comments are based on only a few hundered km in a model, but that is more than what most of us get to do on a test drive prior to buying the next family hack. I know a lot of cars I would not buy.


Excellent write up. But I disagree with you on the Pickups. I find Chevs to be mushy on the highway, and Dodges to rattle your fillings out (3500 TD) especially on gravel. I bought an F-150 because of it's highway and off road manners.

Can't wait for the new Taurus SHO too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:52 pm
 


stemmer stemmer:
JD Powers - Most dependable cars

Luxury
After Lexus, the remaining top five most reliable brands were: Mercury, Cadillac, Toyota and Acura.
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/2.html

Sub compact
1st place: Hyundai Accent
2nd place: Scion xA
3rd place: Chevrolet Aveo
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/3.html

Compact Car
1st place: Toyota Prius
2nd place: Mitsubishi Lancer
3rd place: Toyota Corolla
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/4.html

Midsize sporty car
1st place: Chevrolet Monte Carlo
2nd place: Toyota Camry Solara Coupe/Convertible
3rd place: Mitsubishi Eclipse
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/6.html

Compact sporty car
1st place: Mazda Miata
2nd place: Toyota Celica
3rd place: Subaru Outback Sport
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/5.html

Midsize car
1st place: Buick Century
2nd place: Mercury Sable
3rd place: Toyota Camry Sedan
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/7.html

Large car
1st place: Ford Crown Victoria
2nd place: Mercury Grand Marquis
3rd place: Buick Park Avenue
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ity/8.html

Entry premium vehicle
1st place Lexus IS 300/IS 300 SportCross
2nd place BMW 3 Series
3rd place BMW X3
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/10.html

Large premium car
1st place: Lexus LS 430
2nd place: Lincoln Town Car
3rd place: Cadillac DeVille
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/12.html

Premium sporty car
1st place: Lexus SC 430
2nd place: Ford Thunderbird
3rd place: Porsche 911
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/13.html

Compact SUV
1st place: Honda Element (tie)
1st place: Toyota RAV4 (tie)
2nd place: Honda CR-V
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/14.html

Midsize SUV
1st place: Toyota Highlander
2nd place: Buick Rainier
3rd place: Mercury Mountaineer
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/15.html

Large SUV
1st place: Toyota Sequoia
2nd place: Chevrolet Suburban
3rd place: Ford Excursion
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/16.html

Midsize premium SUV
1st place: Lexus GX 470
2nd place: Lexus RX 330
3rd place: Volvo XC70
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/17.html

Large premium SUV
1st place: Lexus LX 470
2nd place: Cadillac Escalade EXT
3rd place: Cadillac Escalade/Escalade ESV
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/18.html

Midsize pickup
1st place: Ford Ranger
2nd place: Toyota Tacoma
3rd place: Dodge Dakota
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/19.html

Full size Pickup
1st place: Toyota Tundra
2nd place: Ford F-150 LD
3rd place: Dodge Ram Pickup LD
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/20.html

Van
1st place: Mercury Monterey
2nd place: Ford E-Series
3rd place: GMC Savana
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/aut ... ty/21.html


Last 10-15 years? Oh...and still the Japanese dominate. Got anything on depreciation either? Now that you've discovered JD Powers, maybe you could get that Lemon Aid info.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:20 pm
 


In mid-size sporty a Chevy Monte Carlo was picked #1 over the Toyota Camry Solara & Mitsubishi Eclipse.

In large cars all 3 were domestics...which explains why most taxis are domestics...

In midsize cars 2 of 3 were domestics. Again explains why most taxis are domestics...

In Mid size pickup two domestics and one import...

Domestics are shut out of compacts and sub-compacts...

Premium sporty car - Ford T-Bird finished second to
Lexus SC 430 and above a Porsche 911...

Vans were all domestics. Fullsize pickups 2 of 3 were domestics...

Large Premium SUVs - two of three were domestics...


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