[Gunnair]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

How about every single square inch that you live on.

You didn 't give what you didn't own, Donny. It's a conveniant fact that generally, property ownership was rather a foriegn concept to natives, and certainly one introduced by Europeans. You current arguments are based upon your observances of a European concept, not a native one.

How curious.

[ShepherdsDog]

Some of the more developed peoples had an idea of communal ownership. There were plenty of skirmishes started by one tribe infringing on the lands of another. Ownership(by women) of resources was a major part of the Iriquoian peoles.

The Cree, being nomads were more likely not to have much of an idea of ownership.

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Some of the more developed peoples had an idea of communal ownership. There were plenty of skirmishes started by one tribe infringing on the lands of another. Ownership(by women) of resources was a major part of the Iriquoian peoles.

The Cree, being nomads were more likely not to have much of an idea of ownership.

Agreed. However, I'm talking about complex property owenership and administration - i.e. land. Territorial claims were generally upheld by force, not by law.

[TattoodGirl]

I came up with alot of stuff of late. I am not a supporter of Mohawk ways of late. I am a supporter of Ipperwash...if folks want to know why I am open. but my final thought is this ...my elders have always taught me...we are all one on this globe(planet) and we all need to live together....even if we have to sacrifice. I think that is food for thought for most....there is no material there is only internal.

[EyeBrock]

Ipperwash is a different matter. In that case there was a breach of an agreed treaty, and I'm all for those guys getting what was due.

In Caledonia, the Grand River etc, the Mohawks sold their land in the 19th century, along with the 'white' settlers who were given land grants at the same time.

Donny can't seem to differentiate between the two.

[Dayseed]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Ipperwash is a different matter. In that case there was a breach of an agreed treaty, and I'm all for those guys getting what was due.

In Caledonia, the Grand River etc, the Mohawks sold their land in the 19th century, along with the 'white' settlers who were given land grants at the same time.

Donny can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Another problem is public perception. While I am all for principled justice, there also needs to be a public perception that justice is being served. When some or even most of Ontario's population feels as though they're being taken to the cleaners over Caledonia, the province needs to do something. Buying the land to avoid the problem isn't enough.

NOBODY should have access to the land then. Kick out the Indians and kick out the developers. The Indians having unilateral access to disputed lands AND setting up cigarette shacks shocks the public conciousness and brings justice into disrepute. Also, just how "disputed" is the land? A way back when, a Superior Court Justice ruled that the land was NOT the Indians; they failed to show a reasonable claim to it.

The organized militia, while most likely going to be as unjust as the protest, is a clear message that the province is failing the majority of the public.

[EyeBrock]

Yep, the optics in Caledonia look bad.

The Mohawks have certainly annoyed most of the tax-paying province.

Really, all they have done is alert the public to the fact that they get a free ride at our expense and that they can get away with breaking the law.

[Alta_redneck]

Eyebrock, what's the law say on this statement.

I'll quote it close as I can. " We will be an unarmed group of citizens, when we see the law being broken we will making a citizens arrest and force the OPP to act. Police must detain anyone that has been placed under citizen arrest."

This was said by one of the organizers of this group on a radio interview.

[EyeBrock]

Dodgy ground AltaR.
Excessive force used on arrest? The level of force used by citizens is unregulated, unlike police, and 'reasonable force' must be decided by a court. As in those using force get arrested and charged.

In reality the Caledonia residents are way more likely to get arrested than the Mohawks.
The OPP will intervene and lock up the locals.

Arresting the Mohawks has become too politically loaded. No support from the OPP top brass and definitely no support from the Liberal government, so why do it?

[Alta_redneck]

Their trying to show that the cops aren't doing their jobs. This guy in the interview never mentioned how much force they were willing to use. The way he talked, if they see a Mohawk breaking the law they will hold his hand until the cops come and take him away. Me thinks the Mohawks ain't going to let that happen.

[CommanderSock]

When will people learn politics trumps always violence.

Gandhi, Martin Lither, Nelson Mandela, etc vs Yasser Arafat, Osama Bin Liden, random militias.

If Natives don't get their Nelson or Gandhi they'll be treated like squatters no matter where they reside or what they do.

[Dayseed]

Alta_redneck Alta_redneck:

Their trying to show that the cops aren't doing their jobs. This guy in the interview never mentioned how much force they were willing to use. The way he talked, if they see a Mohawk breaking the law they will hold his hand until the cops come and take him away. Me thinks the Mohawks ain't going to let that happen.

No doubt. The first clash between Mohawk and Militia is going to be a throwback to the days of settling the west. Some hothead on one side or the other is going to escalate it to ugliness, matched by hotheads on the other side. It's going to be uglier than Jon and Kate forcing happy-faces while in the room with each other.

[Lemmy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Ipperwash is a different matter. In that case there was a breach of an agreed treaty, and I'm all for those guys getting what was due.

The problem with Ipperwash is that the natives that fought to get that land back (Stoney Point Ojibway) aren't even the natives that are there now. The Montreal mafia and the Mohawks have taken over the old army base and now it's just a big goddamn grow operation. So, it can't have been that big a deal to the Stoney Point natives since after they got their "sacred", ancestral land back, they just turned it over to someone else for a share of the dope money.

[PJB]

In the end all of these land claims end up being about money and one group of people openly ignoring Canadian laws because we let them get away with it. I think we should decide to occupy an urban reserve and see how long it lasts.

[Dayseed]

PJB PJB:

In the end all of these land claims end up being about money and one group of people openly ignoring Canadian laws because we let them get away with it. I think we should decide to occupy an urban reserve and see how long it lasts.

See, this is the problem with provincial inaction. While I disagree with escalation there PJB, I don`t disagree with distaste in government inaction.