[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If you're old enough to commit a premeditated multiple murder then you're old enough to spend the rest of your life contemplating that act.

Are you saying this kid is unusually mature? If you're old enough to spend the rest of your life contemplating you acts, why aren't you old enough to drive a car, get married, get a job, take out a mortgage, or vote?

No. I am saying that where he's already established himself as a remorseless killer it's best to plan on keeping him in prison for the rest of his life in order to protect society from him.

Understand that to me the rights of the innocent trump this murderer's rights each and every time.

That said, I would not want him executed because he is young enough that he might reform. And if he does so then a future governor can always consider his case and grant him clemency. But if he doesn't change he won't be put into the public to kill again.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

No. I am saying that where he's already established himself as a remorseless killer it's best to plan on keeping him in prison for the rest of his life in order to protect society from him.

Understand that to me the rights of the innocent trump this murderer's rights each and every time.

That said, I would not want him executed because he is young enough that he might reform. And if he does so then a future governor can always consider his case and grant him clemency. But if he doesn't change he won't be put into the public to kill again.

How would you establish he's reformed? Is he spouting hate, abusing drugs or attacking other people now? This was a one off.

I have no problem with him getting a life sentence - ie that he would be watched the rest of his life. He should get some sort of in custody treatment now, and if it looks good be gradually released to see how he does on the outside. If he fucks up, back in he goes.

I once shot a friend in the gut with a target arrow when we were twelve. He was standing over an arrow we had put in the ground as a target. I said move or I'll shoot you, he didn't so I did. He wasn't injured because he had a heavy coat on, the bow we were using was crap, and the arrow was dull. But what if I'd nailed him in the eye? I felt like total crap after doing that, but at the time I released the arrow I wasn't thinking. It taught me a lesson - don't fuck about with dangerous things. But I think most of us are capable of doing evil in the right circumstances. Kids especially aren't going to be thinking it through. An 11 year old has a very good chance of being rehabilitated. Life in prison is just a waste of a human life.

[Lemmy]

This reminds me of the case of Nathanial Abraham from Michigan in the late 90s. I think that in EXTREME circumstances, children of any age may be justly sentenced as adults (including capital punishment). The law should be dynamic and malleable enough to be of use in those rare cases of extreme, wanton cruelty. Abraham is a perfect example of a youth that is too violent and too anti-social to ever be allowed in public again.

I don't know how it happened, but somehow along the development of our legal system, we adopted the philosophy that offenders should be punished less harshly because they didn't understand the consequences of their actions. How did that become a mitigating factor? In my opinion, not knowing the consequences of one's actions ought to be an aggravating factor in sentencing. The surest way to guage what an individual is capable of is to examine what they do. When we identify people who have zero regard for human life, those people should either be sent away forever or executed for reasons of public safety. I'd have no problem executing a child of ANY age for murder. Abraham should have been executed and it sounds to me like society would be better off getting rid of this evil creature as well. Rehabilitation should not even be a question in sentencing violent offenders.

[Gunnair]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Wonder if prison has spongebob sheets?

Have fun, kid, if you're guilty, you deserve it.

At 11??? My 12 year-old nephew barely has (as in sometimes he doesn't) the maturity to not bang his knife and fork on the table at family dinners, and you expect someone younger than that to have the maturity to comprehend the finality and consequences of death? Not likely.

Oh well. Guess he shouldn't have shot and killed his pregnant step mom and then went to school.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

The problem with what we do currently, send them to juvie, is that it just hardens the kid and makes him a better criminal. So if there was any chance he would reform, it's lessened by putting him in juvie for 3 years, which is the max you can give someone sentenced as a minor. So we need to reform the prison system if we don't just want to release tougher criminals on the streets.

OTOH, Wayne Glowaki, who helped kill Reena Virk, did his ten years (adult sentence max for underage) and seems to have reformed himself. He's made peace with Virk's family and is speaking in schools about what he did. So it can be done.

Gunnair - why not just execute him if you feel an 11 year old is totally responsible for his actions?

One rule - you said it. Now you plan to cherry pick.

Surprise!

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If you're old enough to commit a premeditated multiple murder then you're old enough to spend the rest of your life contemplating that act.

Are you saying this kid is unusually mature? If you're old enough to spend the rest of your life contemplating you acts, why aren't you old enough to drive a car, get married, get a job, take out a mortgage, or vote?

Kid did the crime. Pre-meditated, killed his pregnant step mom with a shotgun.

Think about that, kid, for the next seventy years.

[ShepherdsDog]

If they determined that the kid is a sociopath, then it's for the good of society. Sociopaths are born broken and there is nothing to do to treat the lack of humanity. Anyone who thinks or says differently is blowing smoke out of their ass.

[DanSC]

Maybe life WITH parole? If he is crazy beyond repair, which is likely, he'll still rot in prison.

[ShepherdsDog]

semantics hardly matter.

[Gunnair]

DanSC DanSC:

Maybe life WITH parole? If he is crazy beyond repair, which is likely, he'll still rot in prison.

Let him rot.

[romanP]

This is why you don't give weapons to people who aren't old enough to drink, vote, or drive a car, folks. I've heard of more than enough people teaching their six-year old how to fire a gun. Sure, it seems like passing on a family tradition, but you're putting a lethal instrument in the hands of a person who probably just learned how to tie their shoes and whose decision making abilities likely still include believing they can trick their parents into skipping dinner and going straight to dessert.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

No. I am saying that where he's already established himself as a remorseless killer it's best to plan on keeping him in prison for the rest of his life in order to protect society from him.

How do you know if he has any remorse for what he did? The article makes no mention of it. He may not have understood the consequences for his actions until after he had committed the murder. He may still not fully understand the consequences now.

$1:

Understand that to me the rights of the innocent trump this murderer's rights each and every time.

I don't think you understand what you're saying.

$1:

That said, I would not want him executed because he is young enough that he might reform.

It's pretty unlikely. Prison is school for criminals. At such an impressionable age, it's more likely he'll just learn how to become a hardened criminal and develop all kinds of terrible mental illnesses on top of what he's already got to deal with.

$1:

And if he does so then a future governor can always consider his case and grant him clemency. But if he doesn't change he won't be put into the public to kill again.

This kid doesn't need prison, he needs serious psychological therapy. He's got to be allowed to come to terms with what he's done, and prison is not the place for a child to do that. What you're proposing, and what will happen to him if he goes to prison for life, is an excellent way to produce another psychopath.

[romanP]

andyt andyt:

But I think most of us are capable of doing evil in the right circumstances.

And therein lies the problem with prison terms for children. You shooting your friend with an arrow probably wasn't an act of evil which, if it were, would imply that you are an inherently bad person, incapable of ever knowing how to do anything the rest of us might consider good. People are not inherently good or bad, people are just people. You did something regrettable, which caused your friend pain, and you regret it. That is the basis of remorse.

We can't determine that this kid is evil because he blew someone's head off with a gun that was presumably given to him by his parents (I don't know how else an 11-year old child legally acquires a gun, much less one that is made for children. The fact that such a thing exists is quite fucked up all on its own.), even if he planned it. Perhaps it was curiosity, perhaps it was anger or jealousy that drove his decision without full knowledge of the permanent consequences of his actions, perhaps the social environment he was raised in made it seem like an acceptable thing to do.. perhaps he's just a confused kid who didn't have enough parental guidance to know that you can't just go around shooting people. The latter seems most likely, given the fact that he had a gun made for children. What happened may have simply been a lesson learned the hard way because no one bothered to teach him in a way that would have caused the least amount of harm.

[romanP]

Lemmy Lemmy:

When we identify people who have zero regard for human life, those people should either be sent away forever or executed for reasons of public safety.

A person who has no regard for human life is a person who understands the consequences of their actions, but doesn't care and commits the crime anyway. A person who is unaware of the consequences of their actions is probably ignorant or simply does not have enough life experience and personal development to know better.

To suggest that there are evil people is to suggest that there are people born into a social vacuum, who then live their life in a social vacuum. It is to say that such a person is not human, was not raised by other humans, has never interacted with other humans, and thus is completely alien to anything to do with humans. With the exception of extremely rare cases of feral children, this does not happen. To say that a person is evil is to attach mystical, superstitious, and emotional definition to something which should not be defined by any of those qualities. This child is not a superman or a demon, he is a human child who has done something he will probably not fully comprehend for several more years, if he ever does. Sending him to prison for life will probably not help him ever understand.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

The problem with what we do currently, send them to juvie, is that it just hardens the kid and makes him a better criminal. So if there was any chance he would reform, it's lessened by putting him in juvie for 3 years, which is the max you can give someone sentenced as a minor. So we need to reform the prison system if we don't just want to release tougher criminals on the streets.

OTOH, Wayne Glowaki, who helped kill Reena Virk, did his ten years (adult sentence max for underage) and seems to have reformed himself. He's made peace with Virk's family and is speaking in schools about what he did. So it can be done.

Gunnair - why not just execute him if you feel an 11 year old is totally responsible for his actions?

One rule - you said it. Now you plan to cherry pick.

Surprise!

Nice try. You can do better, I hope.