[HaRdLy]

desertdouche

Killing civilians is illegal, and would be grounds for legal refusal.

[desertdude]

yes thank you....hardly

[Guy_Fawkes]

desertdude desertdude:

Alright I'll bite. Let pitch in a hypothetical situation.

Your a military man, lets say Canada went to war with the UK for some petty reason and you were deployed and ordered to destroy your own village and kill civillians , people who you know for a fact have nothing to do with this and totally innocent.

Would you ?

And no, that would never happen and Canada would never go to war with britain etc etc, remember in the hypothetical everything can and will happen. And I dunno if it was you but somebody recently did just say the military does "war game" such far out scenarios

So again, would you ?

Talk about a tight spot eh ?

Not at all, I tell my boss that this is not what I joined for and I will not fight against the British. At that point they will remind me that a refusal to do so will land my ass in jail, I agree and after a short trial I will be sent to prison.

[desertdude]

Admire you honesty and integrity Guy. But then technically and officially won't you be a traitor and coward in the eyes of the Canadian govt.

And wouldn't you rather prefer the choice to not to be incarcerated for your beliefs

[Thanos]

Soldiers have the right, and the duty, to disobey illegal orders that violate the Geneva Conventions or the laws of the nation they are fighting for. I'm not sure what this has to do with any American deserters coming to Canada though. Mass killings of civilians is not an accepted or authorized tactic of the US or Allied forces in Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, the American military justice system has been quite vigourous in prosecuting American soldiers who have illegally killed any civilians.

[EyeBrock]

desertdude desertdude:

Alright I'll bite. Let pitch in a hypothetical situation.

Your a military man, lets say Canada went to war with the UK for some petty reason and you were deployed and ordered to destroy your own village and kill civillians , people who you know for a fact have nothing to do with this and totally innocent.

Would you ?

And no, that would never happen and Canada would never go to war with britain etc etc, remember in the hypothetical everything can and will happen. And I dunno if it was you but somebody recently did just say the military does "war game" such far out scenarios

So again, would you ?

Talk about a tight spot eh ?

Not really. An illegal order should not be obeyed. It's in QR's and I'm sure it's reflected in most decent armies in NATO.

Things like this are taught to us all in basic training. It's no-brainer in our armies. Maybe it's a topic of interest in Arab armies though?

[andyt]

Is it really that simple tho? I wonder if Guy Fawkes would, if it really came down to fighting the British, just gladly march himself off to jail, or if he was really faced with disobeying an order he didn't believe in, running to another country might seem preferable.

Iraq didn't have a lot of legitimacy, there were horror stories coming out of it about what US troops did, and I'm sure we didn't hear the half of it. Iraq didn't threaten the US, so I can see some point to people refusing to go.

[EyeBrock]

It is that simple andy. ‘Conscientious objectors’ have been around since the Great War, but it’s usually been persons that have been conscripted/drafted that have objected to being in the military.

These cowards signed up freely then had second thoughts, then deserted. They had other avenues but they chose to run.

[desertdude]

Thats what I was getting to. The whole Iraqi invasion disobeys the geneva convention and the UN charter and never sanctioned by it, no matter how low the opinions about the UN are after the recent events but its the closet thing to a world body we have today.

So anybodys refusal to fight it on those grounds are valid as they constitute illegal orders

[EyeBrock]

desertdude desertdude:

Thats what I was getting to. The whole Iraqi invasion disobeys the geneva convention and the UN charter and never sanctioned by it, no matter how low the opinions about the UN are after the recent events but its the closet thing to a world body we have today.

So anybodys refusal to fight it on those grounds are valid as they constitute illegal orders

More utter bollocks from you DD.

[Bodah]

desertdude desertdude:

Thats what I was getting to. The whole Iraqi invasion disobeys the geneva convention and the UN charter and never sanctioned by it, no matter how low the opinions about the UN are after the recent events but its the closet thing to a world body we have today.

So anybodys refusal to fight it on those grounds are valid as they constitute illegal orders

Haven't heard a peep from the UN regarding Amercian deserters coming north and butting in with our affairs, have you ?

It's simple don't want to go to a combat zone. Don't join the military. This isn't Vietnam people aren't getting drafted. Send their asses right back.

[desertdude]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

desertdude desertdude:

Thats what I was getting to. The whole Iraqi invasion disobeys the geneva convention and the UN charter and never sanctioned by it, no matter how low the opinions about the UN are after the recent events but its the closet thing to a world body we have today.

So anybodys refusal to fight it on those grounds are valid as they constitute illegal orders

More utter bollocks from you DD.

Prove me wrong, and if it is why isn't Canada involved in this "just" war ?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

[Guy_Fawkes]

desertdude desertdude:

Admire you honesty and integrity Guy. But then technically and officially won't you be a traitor and coward in the eyes of the Canadian govt.

And wouldn't you rather prefer the choice to not to be incarcerated for your beliefs

No, saying you do not agree with something on moral grounds then sticking by your convictions and accepting the consequences is not cowardice. Packing your stuff and slipping away under the cover of darkness to a hide from your decision is cowardice.

What would be a worse outcome for an armed forces; 10% of the military incarcerated for refusing to fight a war they thought was immoral or 10% of the military abandoning their post and fleeing the country because they did not want to fight in a war they feel is immoral.

[Guy_Fawkes]

desertdude desertdude:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

desertdude desertdude:

Thats what I was getting to. The whole Iraqi invasion disobeys the geneva convention and the UN charter and never sanctioned by it, no matter how low the opinions about the UN are after the recent events but its the closet thing to a world body we have today.

So anybodys refusal to fight it on those grounds are valid as they constitute illegal orders

More utter bollocks from you DD.

Prove me wrong, and if it is why isn't Canada involved in this "just" war ?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

No one here is saying it was a 'just' war. I think the idea behind it was noble, but how that idea was carried out is despicable. Canada was very close to going at one point, it was only though a brief moment of clarity from the Libs that we didnt go.

[desertdude]

Thats not my point Guy atleast not in my last post where brock called it bollocks that its does not violate the geneva convention or the UN charter. Nor was it sanctioned by the UN.

One of the major reasons why Canada did not go to war in Iraq, and might have, had the UN sanctioned it.