[EyeBrock]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Frequent elections are a good thing because politicians are like diapers: they need to be changed frequently and for the same reason.

Unfortunately, this shitty diaper will mean we get another one supposedly fresh but in reality it will full of the same old poo.

[hurley_108]

bootlegga bootlegga:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think we will be in minority territory until the pop-to-MP ratio is brought into line with our actual population.


That will piss Quebec off though but it will mean that the Bloc won't get in the way of a Lib or Tory majority.

Hopefully Harper will get off his ass and pass that seat re-distribution plan. The Bloc can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned. Quebec isn't the only province not getting extra seats, only those that have grown (BC, Ab, ON) are getting them.

Even with the seat redistribution, there would probably have been no majority in '08.

Allocating the new seats to the parties as proportions of seats won in '08, the count would have been

161 Conservative
84 Liberal
49 Bloc
42 NDP
2 Independent

Out of a 338 seat house, you need 170 to have a majority. The Conservatives would still have been well shy.

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Thank God the USA doesn't have a parliamentary system. It's bad enough we've got to listen to the politicians every two years, I can't imagine having to put up with national elections as frequently as can happen in your system. Not an insult, mind you, I just feel for you, my brothers.

I prefer the parliamentary system to your republic system.

The only thing I wish was different was if we abolished this outdated FPTP and replaced it with some form of PR.

Mmm. I've not seen any other system that I like. FPTP has many faults but it does mean that a local voice is heard. PR just puts us all in one big blob of votes.

[andyt]

For a politician to be elected, even the first time, he already has a lot of crap in his nappies. We just don't elect people who are truly clean, the system doesn't allow it, since politics is all about making deals.

[EyeBrock]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

bootlegga bootlegga:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think we will be in minority territory until the pop-to-MP ratio is brought into line with our actual population.


That will piss Quebec off though but it will mean that the Bloc won't get in the way of a Lib or Tory majority.

Hopefully Harper will get off his ass and pass that seat re-distribution plan. The Bloc can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned. Quebec isn't the only province not getting extra seats, only those that have grown (BC, Ab, ON) are getting them.

Even with the seat redistribution, there would probably have been no majority in '08.

Allocating the new seats to the parties as proportions of seats won in '08, the count would have been

161 Conservative
84 Liberal
49 Bloc
42 NDP
2 Independent

Out of a 338 seat house, you need 170 to have a majority. The Conservatives would still have been well shy.

I dunno. I think that Quebec voters are more likely to side with a national party if the Blocs power is diminished by new seats in the ROC.

Plus your 9 seat miss in majority is pure speculation.

[bootlegga]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

bootlegga bootlegga:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think we will be in minority territory until the pop-to-MP ratio is brought into line with our actual population.


That will piss Quebec off though but it will mean that the Bloc won't get in the way of a Lib or Tory majority.

Hopefully Harper will get off his ass and pass that seat re-distribution plan. The Bloc can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned. Quebec isn't the only province not getting extra seats, only those that have grown (BC, Ab, ON) are getting them.

Even with the seat redistribution, there would probably have been no majority in '08.

Allocating the new seats to the parties as proportions of seats won in '08, the count would have been

161 Conservative
84 Liberal
49 Bloc
42 NDP
2 Independent

Out of a 338 seat house, you need 170 to have a majority. The Conservatives would still have been well shy.

My rationale for more seats doesn't have anything to do with a majority, but rather more representation for under-represented provinces.

Without PR (or something else), my vote never really matters, as there are too many people who vote Conservative without actually determining they are the best party - it seems like every second person here feels Trudeau gave them the finger personally and most simply won't vote for a Lib even if they were the only person on the ballot.

[hurley_108]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I don't think its excuses Hurley. Quebec is distinct in many ways and up until now, the ROC's political parties have had to pander to Quebec wants/needs over any other province to gain a majority.

I'm not Quebec bashing here, it's just a reality.

Look at any opinion poll on any subject, Quebec has different views than the ROC. It's just the way it is.

We do need to address rising populations in other provinces and ensure that they are properly represented in Parliament.

I still don't buy it. Harper pissed off Newfoundland and Labrador and paid for it in seats. Mulroney swept the territories in '84, Harper won only 1 and narrowly lost a second. There are lots of red and orange seats in the Maritimes, and one grey that used to be blue. He could probably have done it without even cracking Toronto, if he weren't so polarizing.

The Conservatives' problem is Harper. Not Quebec, and not the Bloc.

[hurley_108]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Thank God the USA doesn't have a parliamentary system. It's bad enough we've got to listen to the politicians every two years, I can't imagine having to put up with national elections as frequently as can happen in your system. Not an insult, mind you, I just feel for you, my brothers.

I prefer the parliamentary system to your republic system.

The only thing I wish was different was if we abolished this outdated FPTP and replaced it with some form of PR.

Mmm. I've not seen any other system that I like. FPTP has many faults but it does mean that a local voice is heard. PR just puts us all in one big blob of votes.

I like instant runoff. It has its own distortions and faults but at least it lets people express their wishes witha bit more nuance.

[hurley_108]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I dunno. I think that Quebec voters are more likely to side with a national party if the Blocs power is diminished by new seats in the ROC.

Plus your 9 seat miss in majority is pure speculation.

You think? I think they might take it as a slight and vote more for the Bloc. Or maybe the two will cancel each other out.

You're right, it is speculation, but it's also speculation that this will solve anything.

[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Thank God the USA doesn't have a parliamentary system. It's bad enough we've got to listen to the politicians every two years, I can't imagine having to put up with national elections as frequently as can happen in your system. Not an insult, mind you, I just feel for you, my brothers.

I prefer the parliamentary system to your republic system.

The only thing I wish was different was if we abolished this outdated FPTP and replaced it with some form of PR.

Mmm. I've not seen any other system that I like. FPTP has many faults but it does mean that a local voice is heard. PR just puts us all in one big blob of votes.

Yeah, but I have to force myself to vote of late because, courtesy of some sweet gerrymandering, my urban home is attached to a giant rural riding, and there's no way in hell that most of them will ever vote anything but Conservative blue, which means the Conservative gets 55-70% of the vote.

I'm sure my frustrations match those of Conservative supporters who live in major urban centers like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. None of those people really get 'local' representation do they?

Under a system like STV - with larger ridings electing 2 or 3 MPs instead of one, I don't see fringe parties (or even the Green party gaining all that much - seat wise), simply because most people who vote Conservative are not that likely to pick them as a 2nd choice. Most ballots would likely be 1. Con, 2. Lib (or vice versa). The only people who might vote Green would be NDP supporters, and given their low numbers, I'm not convinced they would get a seat under that system either. They might swing a seat or two in Toronto, but that would be more than balanced by seats the Conservatives would have a chance of gaining there too.

[EyeBrock]

Either way, it's time that we stopped having to pander to one province over the rest and a proper pop-to-MP representation is long overdue.

[hurley_108]

bootlegga bootlegga:

My rationale for more seats doesn't have anything to do with a majority, but rather more representation for under-represented provinces.

And again, Quebec is being scapegoated. The maritimes and territories are where the real distortions are. We'd need to triple or so the number of seats we've got before every province is truly equal. Not that I'd mind that, though.

$1:

Without PR (or something else), my vote never really matters, as there are too many people who vote Conservative without actually determining they are the best party - it seems like every second person here feels Trudeau gave them the finger personally and most simply won't vote for a Lib even if they were the only person on the ballot.

Trudeau and the gun registry.

[hurley_108]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Either way, it's time that we stopped having to pander to one province over the rest and a proper pop-to-MP representation is long overdue.

Heh, apparently Labrador is the least populous riding in the country (which would make it the most over-represented), with a population of 26,364. Divide Canada's population (34,018,957) by that and you need 1290 seats for perfect rep-by-pop.

Take PEI's (the most over-represented province) total population and divide by its seats and you get a population of 33963 per seat, which still requires about 1000 seats for perfect rep-by-pop.

[EyeBrock]

And look at Quebec vs Ontario. That's one that really bears comparison.

PEI's seat allocation goes back to Confederation and Labrador's allocation came after NFLD stopped driving on left in 1949. Yes moi dear! Between the two of them, Brampton is more populous.

[Chumley]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Either way, it's time that we stopped having to pander to one province over the rest and a proper pop-to-MP representation is long overdue.

Heh, apparently Labrador is the least populous riding in the country (which would make it the most over-represented), with a population of 26,364. Divide Canada's population (34,018,957) by that and you need 1290 seats for perfect rep-by-pop.

Take PEI's (the most over-represented province) total population and divide by its seats and you get a population of 33963 per seat, which still requires about 1000 seats for perfect rep-by-pop.

What is the formula for representation by population? Is it just total population of the country divided by riding/province population?