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Posts: 23084
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:42 am
DrCaleb DrCaleb: bootlegga bootlegga: Honestly, I don't see the difference between this and registering my car. Honestly? If you buy a car, park it on your driveway never register it and never use it, have you committed a crime? That is the difference. I don't see the difference between a car registry and a gun registry, except that the gun registry cost $2 Billion to perform the exact same function. Well, if you never use that car, then it can't endanger the public now can it? But fair enough, in some small number of cases, the car registry doesn't work, fine. And while the gun registry may have cost as much as $2 billion to set up, its annual costs to maintain are about $4 million. While that may seem like a significant sum to you or me, to the federal government spends $9 billion on 65 fighter aircraft or $2.6 billion on two supply ships, that's an insignificant sum. Shutting down the registry will NOT make that $2 billion return, just piss away a very expensive investment. Like I said to QBC, it's like deciding to get rid of your car because it needs an air filter replaced every year (a minor cost compared to the original cost of the car).
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Posts: 53473
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:05 pm
bootlegga bootlegga: DrCaleb DrCaleb: bootlegga bootlegga: Honestly, I don't see the difference between this and registering my car. Honestly? If you buy a car, park it on your driveway never register it and never use it, have you committed a crime? That is the difference. I don't see the difference between a car registry and a gun registry, except that the gun registry cost $2 Billion to perform the exact same function. Well, if you never use that car, then it can't endanger the public now can it? But fair enough, in some small number of cases, the car registry doesn't work, fine. If I never use the car, then why am I a criminal for doing nothing? What is the difference between a car registry, and a gun registry? Make Model Colour Engine Registered Owner Registerd Owners License Make Model Calibre Magazine Size Registered Owner Registerd Owners License And that cost us $2 billion. Because the vehicle registry already does everything the police need - so why does re-inventing the wheel cost so much? I know we won't get the money back by repealing the legislation, put the part where I become a criminal for doing nothing at all is the part I want gone. I bought my firearms legally, and with a valid licence. Because I do nothing and refuse to tell them what I own so it can later be confiscated is not acceptable.
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Posts: 8533
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:27 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb: If I never use the car, then why am I a criminal for doing nothing?
What is the difference between a car registry, and a gun registry?
Make Model Colour Engine Registered Owner Registerd Owners License
Make Model Calibre Magazine Size Registered Owner Registerd Owners License
And that cost us $2 billion. Because the vehicle registry already does everything the police need - so why does re-inventing the wheel cost so much?
I know we won't get the money back by repealing the legislation, put the part where I become a criminal for doing nothing at all is the part I want gone. I bought my firearms legally, and with a valid licence. Because I do nothing and refuse to tell them what I own so it can later be confiscated is not acceptable.
I think the assumption of use is a better one in the case of the car because the vast majority of cars are used daily, let alone once per year so as to require constant registration. The Government can't assume you'll use your gun and also can't tell if you are as easily (any time you put your unregistered car on the road, any policeman who sees your lack of sticker / plate will know you haven't registered), so they have to compel registration in order to build a comprehensive database. Perhaps they could have come up with a better mechanism to compel registration, but they don't have very many tools available to them.
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Posts: 53473
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:53 pm
hurley_108 hurley_108: Perhaps they could have come up with a better mechanism to compel registration, but they don't have very many tools available to them. Why is registration made compulsory? Am I less likely to use the firearm in the commission of a crime because I registered it? I can buy a vehicle, keep it on my 10,000 acre private farm and never have to register or insure it, because it will never see public roads. And by not registering it, I would not automatically be a criminal. Likewise with my 100th anniversary RCMP Commemorative gold plated Winchester 30/30. It will never have a round chambered. It is basically a wall ornament shaped like a rifle. But I am a criminal for not registering it. (and from where I sit, there are plenty of tools in government  )
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Posts: 8533
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:16 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb: hurley_108 hurley_108: Perhaps they could have come up with a better mechanism to compel registration, but they don't have very many tools available to them. Why is registration made compulsory? Am I less likely to use the firearm in the commission of a crime because I registered it? No, but should you be caught in the commission of a crime, the police can figure out what you have declared you have, like the fellow in the WCB incident. It's about knowledge, not deterrence. $1: I can buy a vehicle, keep it on my 10,000 acre private farm and never have to register or insure it, because it will never see public roads. And by not registering it, I would not automatically be a criminal. I wonder how many such vehicles exist in this country - kept in working order, but unregistered and only used on private property. I doubt very many. $1: Likewise with my 100th anniversary RCMP Commemorative gold plated Winchester 30/30. It will never have a round chambered. It is basically a wall ornament shaped like a rifle. But I am a criminal for not registering it. Would you register it if they just asked nicely? $1: (and from where I sit, there are plenty of tools in government  ) 
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Posts: 65472
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:24 pm
The root issue about registration schemes is that, as we've seen in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, New York, Chicago, and New Orleans is that these schemes invariably lend themselves to becoming seizure schemes.
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Posts: 8533
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:32 pm
I'm almost to the point where I don't care which way the vote goes, just as long as both sides STFU and GBTW after its taken. I'm sick of hearing about it, I'm sick of it taking attention away from other areas, just vote and be done with it.
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Posts: 53473
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:37 pm
hurley_108 hurley_108: DrCaleb DrCaleb: hurley_108 hurley_108: Perhaps they could have come up with a better mechanism to compel registration, but they don't have very many tools available to them. Why is registration made compulsory? Am I less likely to use the firearm in the commission of a crime because I registered it? No, but should you be caught in the commission of a crime, the police can figure out what you have declared you have, like the fellow in the WCB incident. It's about knowledge, not deterrence. So we return to the purpose of the registry - to give police a 'tool'. But since criminals don't register illegally bought firearms . .yadda yadda yadda . . .a good cop never assumes a residence does not posess firearms . . .bla bla bla . . . ad nauseum. Whether the firearm was registered or not, he would still have walked in that building and popped off a round. The registry did nothing to make anyone safer. Except now, all his registered firearms will be confiscated. hurley_108 hurley_108: $1: I can buy a vehicle, keep it on my 10,000 acre private farm and never have to register or insure it, because it will never see public roads. And by not registering it, I would not automatically be a criminal. I wonder how many such vehicles exist in this country - kept in working order, but unregistered and only used on private property. I doubt very many. You've never been to farm country. Most vehicles are not registered. Imagine the costs involved if a farmer had to register the feed truck, the combine, the harvester, the ATVs . . .only the 'go to town' vehicles get registered. Same with many construction, harvesting, and lumber companies. They will buy vehicles with the express purpose of never registering them for public roads. hurley_108 hurley_108: $1: Likewise with my 100th anniversary RCMP Commemorative gold plated Winchester 30/30. It will never have a round chambered. It is basically a wall ornament shaped like a rifle. But I am a criminal for not registering it. Would you register it if they just asked nicely? I might, if they asked nicely. And if they didn't decide it would be a crime to not register. But myself like millions of others saw through the BS we were being fed in the overreaction to Ecole Poltechinc. Registering our guns would do nothing toward helping police solve crimes or toward public safety. But increased border protection would have gone so much farther toward that end. I'm not one of those that think the police are here to prevent crime, or under the illusion that the government has my best interests at heart. They do what they can to make the dullest among us think they are doing a barely adequate job so we don't sell out all the torch and pitchfork concessions.
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Posts: 53473
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:38 pm
hurley_108 hurley_108: I'm almost to the point where I don't care which way the vote goes, just as long as both sides STFU and GBTW after its taken. I'm sick of hearing about it, I'm sick of it taking attention away from other areas, just vote and be done with it. +1
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Posts: 65472
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:48 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb: Registering our guns would do nothing toward helping police solve crimes or toward public safety. But increased border protection would have gone so much farther toward that end. But increased border protection for Canada means interdicting the poor Mohawks who support their families by importing undocumented firearms from the USA. Everyone knows that'd be racist.
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Posts: 23084
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:34 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson: The root issue about registration schemes is that, as we've seen in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, New York, Chicago, and New Orleans is that these schemes invariably lend themselves to becoming seizure schemes. Then it's a good thing we don't live in any of those places...
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Posts: 23084
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:38 pm
hurley_108 hurley_108: I'm almost to the point where I don't care which way the vote goes, just as long as both sides STFU and GBTW after its taken. I'm sick of hearing about it, I'm sick of it taking attention away from other areas, just vote and be done with it. I'm sick of it too, but more sick of hearing about how the a registry will lead to confiscation.
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Posts: 23084
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:49 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb: So we return to the purpose of the registry - to give police a 'tool'. But since criminals don't register illegally bought firearms . .yadda yadda yadda . . .a good cop never assumes a residence does not posess firearms . . .bla bla bla . . . ad nauseum. Whether the firearm was registered or not, he would still have walked in that building and popped off a round. The registry did nothing to make anyone safer. Except now, all his registered firearms will be confiscated. Sure it made people safer. Had police known he was armed with a .22, they would have cordoned off a smaller area than if he had a Winchester 30-30. That made civilians walking on the street (unaware of what was happening) safer. DrCaleb DrCaleb: I can buy a vehicle, keep it on my 10,000 acre private farm and never have to register or insure it, because it will never see public roads. And by not registering it, I would not automatically be a criminal. Yes, and if someone goes to your farm and steals it, then the police have no way to even know where it came from (or possibly return your property to you - although admittedly a stolen gun used in crime likely wouldn't be returned). And without insurance, you also have to replace it yourself. I'm sure people do this all the time, but that still doesn't make it right any more than cheating on your taxes does.
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Posts: 65472
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:51 pm
bootlegga bootlegga: I'm sick of it too, but more sick of hearing about how the a registry will lead to confiscation. You may be sick of it yet the fact remains that registration is a necessary precursor to confiscation. One of the best ways to avoid a confiscation problem is not to facilitate it in the first place. Given that no registry scheme has ever reduced crime then the only logical reason for implementing such a costly scheme is to facilitate an eventual confiscation.
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FieryVulpine 
Forum Elite
Posts: 1348
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:53 pm
Here is an important question: what does the registry do to prevent anyone from buying guns off the black market? The long and short of it is: nothing. Even if you force every gun owner to register their firearms, that won't anyone from purchasing firearms off the black market. If someone has the motivation and the money, they will somehow obtain their weapon of choice and injure/kill someone with it and we wasted two BILLION dollars for a registry that sucks at doing its job.
When I think about it: in the wrong hands, butter knives and forks can be deadly weapons. Why not create a silverware registry? Hey, and someone can bash my head in with a wooden plank. We need a two by four registry! Ridiculous, yes but the Liberals blew two billion on a vanity project. What's two billion more?
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