[sandorski]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

There was nothing to apologize for. The Canadian troops had no mandate to do anything past what they were ordered to do and had General Dallaire ordered the troops to do something without approval he'd have been promptly cashiered along with every officer under his command.

No offense, but knowing you people as I do I think it's fair to say that if Dallaire had prevented the genocide you all would've soundly condemned him for going off the reservation as a 'gung-ho cowboy' and the fact of nothing happening would've only served to hang the man.

I think you don't know us as well as you think. I would have stood behind him 100% as would most of my colleagues, had he intervened in the conflict.

Sure, the CF guys would stand behind the man. But the common Canadian would be mortified that a Canadian soldier actually used force to protect innocent lives.

And please understand, I am looking at this through the lens of the genocide being averted.

I have seen too many good people toss away a career because they impolitely prevented someone from committing a wrong.

See, when you prevent something from happening you then have no justification for your actions because nothing happened.

Imagine an F-16 pilot shooting down the four airliners on 9/11 and thereby preventing what followed. The poor bastard would be put to death for murdering the airline passengers and crew regardless of the intention of the hijackers.

It's just the way this crap works.

I totally disagree. Clearly Dallaire couldn't really succeed on intervening, at least in an effective manner on the whole situation, but he wouldn't be condemned for attempting to do so from the Canadian public.

[sandorski]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

sandorski sandorski:

Agreed. sounds like Bart is projecting a Stereotype. That being, that those who generally oppose War, always Oppose War no matter the circumstances. Sounds good on Fox News and to the FN Viewer, but doesn't really exist IRL.

No, I am not.

Say I go out and shoot some guy and say he was about to blow up a busload of babies. I'd be stuck having to prove his intent and the whole thing would be on me.

Same goes for Dallaire.

I think the poor guy was damned no matter what he did. I'm really on his side here, okay?

I'm on his side too, I just think you're using a Strawman argument concerning what the average Canadian thinks.

[Bodah]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

There was nothing to apologize for. The Canadian troops had no mandate to do anything past what they were ordered to do and had General Dallaire ordered the troops to do something without approval he'd have been promptly cashiered along with every officer under his command.

No offense, but knowing you people as I do I think it's fair to say that if Dallaire had prevented the genocide you all would've soundly condemned him for going off the reservation as a 'gung-ho cowboy' and the fact of nothing happening would've only served to hang the man.

Agreed,

It would of been nice if Dallaire ignored UNHQ and did what the rest of us knew what had to be done, but he didn't. Can't blame him for that since he followed the proper chain of command.

[Gunnair]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

No offense, but knowing you people as I do I think it's fair to say that if Dallaire had prevented the genocide you all would've soundly condemned him for going off the reservation as a 'gung-ho cowboy' and the fact of nothing happening would've only served to hang the man.

That's some foolish and insulting stereotyping which shows how little you really know about Canadians. It's pure speculation on all parts, but Canadians aren't the pussies you suppose when it comes to supporting those that are defending the weak. Thanks for reinforcing a bad American stereotype wrt ignorance of Canadians.

[Canadian_Mind]

I'm sorry, I have to agree in part with what Bart is saying aswell.

Reason for this is not that we are a bunch of stereotypical pricks. The reason is that, if no genocide occured, or even if Dallaire had managed to stop it, troops under his command would have died, and he would have gone against the orders of the UN.

When the media get ahold of that, thats all they would have focused on. They wouldn't have given two shits about the genocide, only that our peacekeepers were used as war machines (what we train to be, but who'd have guessed that). This in turn, is all that 90% of the Canadian public would hear about and base 90& of their opinions on.

So Bart is correct about what the Canadian public opinion would be; he is just incorrect in trying to fault the people. I believe the Canadian public to be a very smart group that can make very sound opinions when based on sound information. But no one can form a sound opinion when they only get half the story.

I believe if Dallaire had tried to stop the genocide, even if he was unsuccesful, and had the people been properly informed, it would have been a point of pride for the Canadian people: That we litterally stood against the world to uphold our own values and save hundreds of thousands of people, whatever the outcome. Sadly that wasn't the fairy tale ending.

[Gunnair]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'm sorry, I have to agree in part with what Bart is saying aswell.

Reason for this is not that we are a bunch of stereotypical pricks. The reason is that, if no genocide occured, or even if Dallaire had managed to stop it, troops under his command would have died, and he would have gone against the orders of the UN.

When the media get ahold of that, thats all they would have focused on. They wouldn't have given two shits about the genocide, only that our peacekeepers were used as war machines (what we train to be, but who'd have guessed that). This in turn, is all that 90% of the Canadian public would hear about and base 90& of their opinions on.

So Bart is correct about what the Canadian public opinion would be; he is just incorrect in trying to fault the people. I believe the Canadian public to be a very smart group that can make very sound opinions when based on sound information. But no one can form a sound opinion when they only get half the story.

I believe if Dallaire had tried to stop the genocide, even if he was unsuccesful, and had the people been properly informed, it would have been a point of pride for the Canadian people: That we litterally stood against the world to uphold our own values and save hundreds of thousands of people, whatever the outcome. Sadly that wasn't the fairy tale ending.

Disagree, but of course both arguements are speculative.
It`s also based on the assumption that the media is the enemy of the military - which is also not true.

[Canadian_Mind]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Disagree, but of course both arguements are speculative.
It`s also based on the assumption that the media is the enemy of the military - which is also not true.

No, but this was back in the 90s, right after Somalia. We were under a much darker or more negative light then we are today. And even today the media still has a tendancy to pick on us when they need an extra bit of shock to add to a story. So I wont call the media the enemy of the military, but I do feel like they would have gone for the "bad army" route to sell a story.

[Gunnair]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Disagree, but of course both arguements are speculative.
It`s also based on the assumption that the media is the enemy of the military - which is also not true.

No, but this was back in the 90s, right after Somalia. We were under a much darker or more negative light then we are today. And even today the media still has a tendancy to pick on us when they need an extra bit of shock to add to a story. So I wont call the media the enemy of the military, but I do feel like they would have gone for the "bad army" route to sell a story.

Right. Again, it's pure speculation. One can easily state that the military might have redeemed itself in a massive way by standing up to the faceless UN and it's own government by 'doing the right thing' and averting the genocide.

The media is equally happy to pick up stories like Haiti where the military is the very public Canadian face of government and public support for those in need.

[Canadian_Mind]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Right. Again, it's pure speculation. One can easily state that the military might have redeemed itself in a massive way by standing up to the faceless UN and it's own government by 'doing the right thing' and averting the genocide.

The media is equally happy to pick up stories like Haiti where the military is the very public Canadian face of government and public support for those in need.

Right, I suppose it is. Though clearly I don't have much trust for the media to have done that.

[sandorski]

Dallaire simply was not able to stop the Genocide, he didn't have the Forces necessary to do so. He may have been able to intervene and save some People, but without more Support that likely would only be temporary and likely would result in getting his Forces killed.

[Canadian_Mind]

Oh his forces were so badly outnumbered the casualty rate would have been off the charts.

But even intervening for 72 hours could be enough time for the chain back home to spool up the resourses to get supplies and more troops in. I can't remember when the airbourne was actually disbanded, but it probably wouldn't have taken long to get all those troops together and into Rwanda to help save the day. Would still have needed help from the US and other allies however. Certainly would have been a chip on the airbournes shoulders. Sadly it's all a fairy tale though.

Of course, thats all if people had the political willpower back home to do something about it.

[Gunnair]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Oh his forces were so badly outnumbered the casualty rate would have been off the charts.

But even intervening for 72 hours could be enough time for the chain back home to spool up the resourses to get supplies and more troops in. I can't remember when the airbourne was actually disbanded, but it probably wouldn't have taken long to get all those troops together and into Rwanda to help save the day. Would still have needed help from the US and other allies however. Certainly would have been a chip on the airbournes shoulders. Sadly it's all a fairy tale though.

Of course, thats all if people had the political willpower back home to do something about it.

I'll throw out the thought that if Dallair had committed, public opinion would have pushed the government into doing something.

Of course it's easy for me (and a little unfair) to sit here and armchair quarterback years later, but I would have thought doing the right thing, even at great cost, would have been an easier decision.

[Canadian_Mind]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I'll throw out the thought that if Dallair had committed, public opinion would have pushed the government into doing something.

Of course it's easy for me (and a little unfair) to sit here and armchair quarterback years later, but I would have thought doing the right thing, even at great cost, would have been an easier decision.

I want to support you in the thought, but I just don't trust the media to relay the proper info to sway public opinion in such a fashion.

And no worries about the armchair thing, we're both doing it. Albiet I bet I'm a hell of a lot younger than you. But to be a part of an intervention like that would have been is the sorta thing I joined up for. If something like Rwanda ever happens again, I would want the outcome to be different, and I would want to be a part of that outcome.

[Gunnair]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I'll throw out the thought that if Dallair had committed, public opinion would have pushed the government into doing something.

Of course it's easy for me (and a little unfair) to sit here and armchair quarterback years later, but I would have thought doing the right thing, even at great cost, would have been an easier decision.

I want to support you in the thought, but I just don't trust the media to relay the proper info to sway public opinion in such a fashion.

And no worries about the armchair thing, we're both doing it. Albiet I bet I'm a hell of a lot younger than you. But to be a part of an intervention like that would have been is the sorta thing I joined up for. If something like Rwanda ever happens again, I would want the outcome to be different, and I would want to be a part of that outcome.

I agree - I think that's what we all sign up for. I understand the politics of it all was extremely complicated, but still, if he'd said the hell with you, UN, I'm making a stand whatever the cost, I think the media and public would have eaten that up as a redemption for the mistakes of Somalia and who knows what benefits might have come from it.

[Canadian_Mind]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I agree - I think that's what we all sign up for. I understand the politics of it all was extremely complicated, but still, if he'd said the hell with you, UN, I'm making a stand whatever the cost, I think the media and public would have eaten that up as a redemption for the mistakes of Somalia and who knows what benefits might have come from it.

Agree to disagree about media, agree to agree we should have done something?