[llama66]

Gunnair Gunnair:

llama66 llama66:

There was the plan to "eradicate" child poverty by the year 2000, it was called "Target 2000". In 1996 there was a National Conference in Ottawa, I was able to attend, as a delegate representing the Children's Aid Society of Metro Toronto, some of the delegates included the Honourable David Dingwall the then Minister of Health and The Honourable Roy Romanow the then Premier of Saskatchewan, the Right Honourable Romeo LeBlanc the then Governor General, and a whole slew of other high ranking government officials, there was a lot of tough talk, but in the years after very little action. If we want to address the child poverty issue we need to tackle the entire poverty issue. there needs to be a comprehensive social system, something that will help these people up, I don't know how we can properly help these people up short of a massive shift in society, and the way people view them selves and their role in it.
But is good that Child Poverty is back in to the light. Perhaps we can effect some real change.

Wow! Long time no see! Hope things are good Llama!

work has been stupid busy, but yeah things are good!

[ASLplease]

I take it that is a small town grocery store, Brenda? Overwaitea and Safeway are both unionized.

[ASLplease]

I just dont see many independant grocery stores anymore.

[Brenda]

ASLplease ASLplease:

I take it that is a small town grocery store, Brenda? Overwaitea and Safeway are both unionized.

Yep. Safeway pays $9.75/hr

[Brenda]

ASLplease ASLplease:

I just dont see many independant grocery stores anymore.

This one has been here since 50 years, it's run by Chinese. She is a total bitch, he speaks 4 words of English, and I have never seen so much workers come and go before. I think the average time of people working there is 4 months. The manager has been there for years, so he makes the average that high.

[ASLplease]

ouch, Safeway is worse.

Brenda, I have empathy for the $6/hr. When BC raised their minumum wage they provided some retailers with an exception. The argument was placed that some retailers are the training grounds for new workers, often high school students, that learn basic job skills then move onto other workplaces. So the government suggested a subsidy since these businesses invest in the workers that end up in other jobs. I did a poor job at explaining this, but I think you understand what I'm getting at.

[Brenda]

ASLplease ASLplease:

ouch, Safeway is worse.

Brenda, I have empathy for the $6/hr. When BC raised their minumum wage they provided some retailers with an exception. The argument was placed that some retailers are the training grounds for new workers, often high school students, that learn basic job skills then move onto other workplaces. So the government suggested a subsidy since these businesses invest in the workers that end up in other jobs. I did a poor job at explaining this, but I think you understand what I'm getting at.

Oh absolutety, I get it. But I am not a highschool student, but a 38 year old immigrant. The funny thing was too, that I didn't apply to be a check out girl, or a shelf-stocker, but assistant manager.
I hope you can understand I told him to fuck off. He literally told me to be happy he wanted to pay me $8.50/hr, which was more than minimum wage

[ASLplease]

I agree. Assistant manager is not the kind of job that they should be looking to push $6 onto. As far as I know, the $6 was optional, a smart employer should not be using it to turn away good experienced people.

[ASLplease]

My sister hired onto an Extra Foods store in SE BC, she was hired at about $35k per year as a produce manager. But be warned, there was a double standard. If you were a man with a family and kids, you could make an extra $15k in the same position. I don't agree with this practise.

[Brenda]

ASLplease ASLplease:

I agree. Assistant manager is not the kind of job that they should be looking to push $6 onto. As far as I know, the $6 was optional, a smart employer should not be using it to turn away good experienced people.

He wanted to take advantage of a stupid immigrant and get someone to his dirty work for nothing. He got pretty pissed when I walked out with the words:
"I'm sorry, but if you want someone, anyone, to work for you for $6/hr, you cannot expect quality. The fact you even mention that you could do it, but you offer me a whole $.50 more than minimum wage to do your dirty work for you, shows me how you run your business. You can shove this job where the sun doesn't shine. Don't bother calling me. Ass."

I was SO pissed... This guy is the son of the owner. His first words during that interview were: "I'm sorry, my mom should be here, but she went to Spokane to gamble yesterday and I haven't seen her since"

Okayyyy?

[Brenda]

ASLplease ASLplease:

My sister hired onto an Extra Foods store in SE BC, she was hired at about $35k per year as a produce manager. But be warned, there was a double standard. If you were a man with a family and kids, you could make an extra $15k in the same position. I don't agree with this practise.

WTF?? Why???
Whats the difference between being a woman or a man (with or without partner and kids)???

That's discrimitaion. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised.

[Bruce_the_vii]

On inflation you can do a quick bit of arithmetic. Some 23% of the workforce of 18 million in Canada earn $12 or less. If you increased minimum wage to $12 for the half of these that live in growth cities the average increase might be $2. So 2.1 million people would get an average of $4000 a year more, for $8.3 billion. In a $1400 billion economy this is 0.6% of GDP, that's the inflation.

In addition the increase is rather broad based at 11.5% so you tend to be increasing the wage of a family member somewhere. So actually it's a transfer within the family in large part.

Unions, governments and corporations inflated the wages they pay decades ago. It's not like the worst off have to be Simon pure with respect to inflation.

[Gunnair]

llama66 llama66:

Gunnair Gunnair:

llama66 llama66:

There was the plan to "eradicate" child poverty by the year 2000, it was called "Target 2000". In 1996 there was a National Conference in Ottawa, I was able to attend, as a delegate representing the Children's Aid Society of Metro Toronto, some of the delegates included the Honourable David Dingwall the then Minister of Health and The Honourable Roy Romanow the then Premier of Saskatchewan, the Right Honourable Romeo LeBlanc the then Governor General, and a whole slew of other high ranking government officials, there was a lot of tough talk, but in the years after very little action. If we want to address the child poverty issue we need to tackle the entire poverty issue. there needs to be a comprehensive social system, something that will help these people up, I don't know how we can properly help these people up short of a massive shift in society, and the way people view them selves and their role in it.
But is good that Child Poverty is back in to the light. Perhaps we can effect some real change.

Wow! Long time no see! Hope things are good Llama!

work has been stupid busy, but yeah things are good!

Good to hear.

[BeaverFever]

kai, you raise some valid points and the minimum wage debate is one of those timeless debates that experts go back and forth on.

I guess when I hear the argument AGAINST the minimum wage, it sounds to me like the arguments against abolishing slavery, in that people back then argued slavery would cause prices to go up, etc. And lets be honest, prices for agricultural products and staples DID in fact go up when slavery was abolished, but it eventually became accepted that those were fair prices to pay.

More specific to your argument, sure, maybe people like you and I will see some minor increase in the price we pay for a coffee or a burger without seeing a wage increase ourselves, but the min wage hasnt kept pace with inflation for decades, so we have basically been benefiting at the expense of min wage workers for a long time. Maybe we owe them an extra penny or two on our cup of coffee.

Second, if the increased cost to most employers is only marginal ie min wage costs are only a small portion of their overall costs then there are ways other than a price increase that may be better for them. As just one example, grocery stores have found ways to increase revenue by providing low cost value added services like using yesterdays produce to make store made salads at the deli counter. If the cost of min wage is very marginal, the business or sector might just eat the cost entirely.

Third, even if we accept that some costs will go up, as I said, its not dollar for dollar and wont affect things like rent or utilities so the min wage worker will be better able to meet those needs.

You are right that small family businesses would be hit hardest and most likely to increase prices. This has implications for the "walmartization" of the economy as larger business are better able to offset or withstand these costs, but thats a separate issue, IMO. Interstingly enough, Walmart has called for an increase in the US minimum wage, on the grounds that many of its customers are low income families and that an increase in the wage would lead to an increase in its sales (however, in fairness, this may just be a predatory strategy against weaker competitors).