[BeaverFever]

LOL, were just lucky OTP hasnt broken the Leafs up into several minor league teams and sold them off one by one.

[CanuckWayne]

raydan raydan:

Wait 'til next year.

They should put this sentence under the team name on the Maple Leafs official website.

[Unsound]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Unsound Unsound:

I do find it hard to understand why Leafs fans keep spending their money and keep watching the games. I get that a real fan doesn't jump ship at the first sign of trouble, but eventually you have to show management that if they can't be bothered to ice a decent product, then you can't be bothered to support it.

Here's what I ask each and every Leaf-basher - what should Burke and company do to fix the Leafs? What did Burke do that is so unforgivable that us real hockey fans should jump onto another bandwagon? Its interesting that people love to bash the Leafs and their fans, but when push comes to shove (or "truculence" in Burkenese) they really don't much about hockey themselves.

Hey, I'm not a leaf basher, I'm just curious about why the fans never seem to show their displeasure in a way that would actually make management sit up and take notice.

[Mustang1]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

Again, i see a lot of finger pointing but no actual suggestions. Speaks volumes.

LOL, That comment reminds me of a commedy sketch I saw once where a patient wakes up in the middle of surgery to find his guts splayed out all over the place and the surgeon scratching his head in confusion and trying to figure out what organs he has in hands. When the patient screams at the doc, the surgeon replies "well I dont hear you coming up with any ideas, smart guy!"

Point is, Im not supposed to be the one telling them what to do, THEYRE SUPPOSED TO BE THE EXPERTS. This is not some start-up hockey team down south, this is the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS, one of the ORIGINAL SIX and one of the winningest teams in hockey history. It shouldnt take them 42 years and counting to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. This year you say they've hired so-and-so and all that has been prophesized shall finally come to pass, well I've heard that line every year since I was born and it already was ten years old then.

So far, they're off to their worst season start in their team history. I dont blame the players, I believe that players play hard on almost any pro team. I blame the managment of a large media and entertainment enterprise, MLSE, who could care less about whether one of their many diverse assets wins or loses games, they have no incentive to put any effort into their situation. The status quo is highly profitable and will be for the forseeable future. The point about not being able to cry poverty was simply meant to illustrate that were not talking about the Coyotes or some other team scraping by and actually trying to prove itself.

Still nothing of substance, hockey-wise. My point was illustrated well.

[Mustang1]

Unsound Unsound:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Unsound Unsound:

I do find it hard to understand why Leafs fans keep spending their money and keep watching the games. I get that a real fan doesn't jump ship at the first sign of trouble, but eventually you have to show management that if they can't be bothered to ice a decent product, then you can't be bothered to support it.

Here's what I ask each and every Leaf-basher - what should Burke and company do to fix the Leafs? What did Burke do that is so unforgivable that us real hockey fans should jump onto another bandwagon? Its interesting that people love to bash the Leafs and their fans, but when push comes to shove (or "truculence" in Burkenese) they really don't much about hockey themselves.

Hey, I'm not a leaf basher, I'm just curious about why the fans never seem to show their displeasure in a way that would actually make management sit up and take notice.

Again, what specifically makes you think managment doesn't take notice?

[Mustang1]

Lemmy Lemmy:

The best thing that could happen to the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan would be a winning Leafs team. Revenues would be through the roof.

You're dealing with another basher with little hockey knowledge. You're right - playoff revenue is what the financial wizards want and that's what managment has been trying to do - make the playoffs.

You'll notice that my challenge is always met with dodges, argumentative fallacies and long-winded posts, short on hockey and long on irrelevant prattle. All i ask is that if you want to bash the Leafs, why not offer HOCKEY solutions? I don't seem to get very many direct answers. I wonder why.

[Lemmy]

Unsound Unsound:

Hey, I'm not a leaf basher, I'm just curious about why the fans never seem to show their displeasure in a way that would actually make management sit up and take notice.

You don't think that's happened? Fans have been showing their displeasure for more than 30 years. The Leafs are already experiencing that. Go to Ottawa some time. Who do you think all those Sens' fans used to support? The thing is that Ontario is such a huge hockey market that there's still enough support even WITH protesters. You think a Leafs ticket is hard to come by now, think of what it'd be like if the team started winning on a consistent basis. And we haven't even talked about all the other sources of revenue that would open to MLSE with a winner, such as merchandise, playoff tickets, increased broadcast revenues, etc.

Furthermore (and we've talked about this ad nauseum already) the majority of premium tickets at the ACC are season tickets, owned by corporations. These tickets are traded as favours and the asses in those seats have rarely paid for the tickets. So how would you have those fans protest? Refuse to use their free tickets? Come on.

As Mustang said, the problem with the Leafs has been consistently feable upper management. In the few years when the team had some managerial direction (in the early 90s under Fletcher) the team was competitive. Do you remember what it was like in 1993? It was INSANE how popular the Leafs became as all those "protestors" got back on the Leafs bandwagon. But even Fletch made some bad decisions looking for a "quick fix" rather than sustainable winning. Now it appears that Burke is committed to doing what needs to be done to turn things around long-term instead of more Band-Aid solutions.

[Gunnair]

CanuckWayne CanuckWayne:

raydan raydan:

Wait 'til next year.

They should put this sentence under the team name on the Maple Leafs official website.

[raydan]

Book Excerpt: Leafs AbomiNation Part One

From a site called "Pension Plan Puppets".

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Again, what specifically makes you think managment doesn't take notice?

Because its been FORTY TWO YEARS!!! Thats more than just "a few bad decisions," or "some bad luck," especially for a legacy team like the Leafs. Consistent outcomes are the product of SYSTEMIC and INSTITUTIONAL issues, not 42 years of 'one-offs' and 'bad flukes'. That includes the decisions made in head office.

I think my point is the issue is far beyond the performance of the Toronto Maple Leafs hockey team, MLSE is much bigger than that, the hockey team is just one 'asset' in its ever-growing portfolio of business ventures, and its an asset that is already paying off handsomely. The MLSE guys who are assigned to the hockey team portfolio and trying to make the playoffs have to compete for attention from corporate HQ with the other MLSE guys who are planning real estate development, with managing proprerty, with managing all their sports networks and broadcasting contracts and the MLSE guys who are charged with making sure Ontario Teachers and TD Capital are fat and happy at the trough.

You are operating on the assumption that the performance of the Leafs is front and centre on the MLSE global agenda, or front and centre to its overall business activity. In reality the Leafs are just ONE of their business enterprises and by all financial accounts already a successful one at that.

The question is not 'could the Leafs be more profitable' if they won, the question is "where is the fire under the ass of management that would reverse this situation?" and the answer is there is no fire under their ass. They have settled for mediocrity because the mediocrity is still very profitable and everyone in HQ is making comfortable fat bonuses. Theyre more worried about their other business ventures.

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You are operating on the assumption that the performance of the Leafs is front and centre on the MLSE global agenda, or front and centre to its overall business activity. In reality the Leafs are just ONE of their business enterprises and by all fincial accounts already a successful one at that.

But YOU'RE operating on the assumption that peformance is NOT on the agenda. If that were true, Brian Burke wouldn't be in Toronto.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The question is not 'could the Leafs be more profitable' if they one, the question is "where is the fire under the ass of management that would reverse this situation?" and the answer is there is no fire under their ass. They have settled for mediocrity because the mediocrity is still very profitable and everyone in HQ is making comfortable fat bonuses. Theyre more worried about their other business ventures.

I guess you missed the news of Burke's hiring and the re-tooling that's begun. If MLSE was focussed on maintaining the status quo of the past decade, then John Ferguson or some other incompetant would still be running the show. The "MLSE is happy with the way it is" is an old and untrue myth, perpetuated by THE FAN radio and other media. But it's a lie. Anyone with an even casual understanding of sports economics knows that the potential profitability of a winning Leafs team is unmatched in the North American professional sports industry, except perhaps by the New York Yankees or Boston Red Sox.

Sure, OTP is happy with the retuns they've made, but they're a scratch of the barrel compared to the the potential revenues from a winner. The "OTP ownership is to blame" lie is just that, a lie.

[BeaverFever]

Maybe this Macleans Magazine feature cover story from last year titled "Why the Leafs stink" will lend some credibility to my argument:

$1:

Why the Leafs stink
It's not bad luck. It's not bad karma. What it takes to build a chronic loser

STEVE MAICH | April 2, 2008 |

Also at Macleans.ca:
The numbers game | Breaking down 41 years of Maple Leafs futility
Tallying it all up | From ill-advised draft picks to bad coaches, Macleans.ca breaks down the reasons the Maple Leafs stink
On second thought... | Maple Leafs' general managers have authored some of the most disastrous trades in NHL history

....The only problem with all this talk of curses is that there are perfectly logical reasons for the Leafs' legacy of failure. The fact that the Toronto Maple Leafs are a bad hockey club is the inevitable by-product of the laws of economics. Their mediocrity is a design flaw, and it comes down to this: for any business to thrive, it must be obsessively focused on victory. Success must yield powerful benefits and failure must unleash harsh consequences. In the world's greatest market for pro hockey, that cost/benefit equation doesn't exist. A gusher of wealth, regardless of performance, has begat 40 years of infighting, a culture of laxity, and a refusal to admit the problem. The Leafs are a monopoly business that has been corrupted by its own market power.
It's not a curse. It's far, far worse.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080402_25296_25296

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Maybe this Macleans Magazine feature cover story from last year titled "Why the Leafs stink" will lend some credibility to my argument:

Nope. Just another perpetuation of a myth. It's a nice theory, but it's not supported by economics. The flat Earth theory was a nice, popular theory too.

[ASLplease]

The earth is not flat? except for Saskatchewan, right?

[BeaverFever]

Lemmy Lemmy:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Maybe this Macleans Magazine feature cover story from last year titled "Why the Leafs stink" will lend some credibility to my argument:

Nope. Just another perpetuation of a myth. It's a nice theory, but it's not supported by economics. The flat Earth theory was a nice, popular theory too.

Fallacy. There is actually no evidence people ever really thought the world was flat. The curvature of the earth can be seen by the naked eye, especially in saskatchewan!


You couldnt possibly have read that whole article, I just posted it. And it specifically cites the economics of monopolies to demonstrate how the Leafs came to be in their current state.