[uwish]

The Rangers are only an observational force, they are not trained to engage in combat, my point was not to diminish their role or their importance, but 1500 rangers in an area the size larger than western Europe hardly warrants any tough talk and posturing.

Sorry I just don't buy that.

[ziggy]

uwish uwish:

The Rangers are only an observational force, they are not trained to engage in combat, my point was not to diminish their role or their importance, but 1500 rangers in an area the size larger than western Europe hardly warrants any tough talk and posturing.

Sorry I just don't buy that.

BS, who do you think trains the canadians and Americans up there?

Rangers,otherwise they would die.
And its a bit more then 1500 peeps,everyone owns a rifle,one that works at -50 where most military shite would break or freeze solid.

This is a case where the unimformed or ignorant think they know whats best but dont,thats why most Innuit would laugh at peoples ideas about what works up there.

EDIT-Most of the guys I met and lived with that are rangers did their time in the military and got the same training everyone else did so dont tell me they werent combat trained.

[uwish]

well then, let me just put my 10 years in the CF aside and keep my 'uninformed' views to myself them.

And sorry chum but it IS only about 1500 and 80% have NO military training outside of the rangers. To think the Rangers could maintain any holding in the arctic at a time of war (for example) invasion is plain naive and ridiculous.

No where in my comment did I claim they didn't know what they were doing, but they are NOT A FIGHTING FORCE. Try to understand that.

And Yes, I have worked with rangers in the arctic during my tenure in the CF. I have nothing but respect for them, but they are observational only. There is simply NO WAY TO get ALL 1500 rangers to any one spot with any urgency, it is not logistically possible.

I did manage to find this on a DND site (which is encouraging)

"This number (of Canadian Rangers) is expected to increase to 4,800 by March 2010"

[ziggy]

I'll take a single ranger over 25 of the best military either the US or Canada has to save my ass up there any day.And like I said,allmost all the rangers I worked with had full military training,just like any other CF personell.

You can play with the number 1500 all you want,thats like one community,i will guarantee you theres a lot more then 1500 peeps with guns ready to protect whats theirs.

Ive spent many hours in airports with guys going up for missions and all I can say is if you seen what they send these guys up with you would shake your head,most would die the first day if left alone on the tundra.So sorry but leave the arctic to the people that know what the fu*k it's about and thats the rangers.

[Choban]

Talk Talk Talk.
Canada needs to stop talking and address all these issues that everyone is pointing out.
It may be a difficult task but we have some smart people in Canada and I'm sure ways can be found to train, distribute and supply any troops and equip. we send up there.
Less talk more action, before Russia does decide we are powerless up there.
I worry about all the negativity I see when it comes to this issue, any Russian immigrant surfing the web can find sites like these and get public opinion and even pertinant intel. on this area and relay it to mother Russia, when all they see is negativity from the public and people saying theres only 1500 rangers up there spread out, well if I was Russian high command I wouldn't hesitate to attack.

lowdown is that talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words so lets see our gov't actually doing something about it

[ziggy]

Choban Choban:

Talk Talk Talk.
Canada needs to stop talking and address all these issues that everyone is pointing out.
It may be a difficult task but we have some smart people in Canada and I'm sure ways can be found to train, distribute and supply any troops and equip. we send up there.
Less talk more action, before Russia does decide we are powerless up there.
I worry about all the negativity I see when it comes to this issue, any Russian immigrant surfing the web can find sites like these and get public opinion and even pertinant intel. on this area and relay it to mother Russia, when all they see is negativity from the public and people saying theres only 1500 rangers up there spread out, well if I was Russian high command I wouldn't hesitate to attack.

lowdown is that talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words so lets see our gov't actually doing something about it

Exactly,everyone gets their panties in a knot every time arctic security is brought up and everytime I have to remind peeps we cant even keep food and fuel going up to the very people who live there,yet we can post storys of drowning polar bears and fearmonger everyone to the point where they have their hunting quota's slashed and cant even hunt for food.

The very same people who cut these quota's are the same people we should trust for arctic security????
Not a freaking chance mon ami.

[bootlegga]

uwish uwish:

this is all fine and nice to talk the talk. But if push comes to shove in the winter we have almost no operational ability or capability in the high arctic. Even in the summer months, AT BEST we could deploy maybe 1000 troops, but they would not be able to be supported for long.

All governments have been talking and talking and beating their chests but none of them are living up to anything they are claiming.

We STILL have NO arctic capable Navy ships, we have NO permanent military presence in the arctic.

So from where I sit, this is all hollow and meaningless posturing.

Exactly what I was thinking. Even the ships Cannon's talking about won't be capable of year round ops up there. Their 'advantage' is that while the Halifax frigates can spend 2 months up there, they can spend 4-6 months there. These half-assed ships are nothing more than jack-of-all-trades, master of none". It's time to buy/design either subs capable of year round ops or create naval vessels that can.

It's too bad that no government in the past 40 years has spent any real effort on securing the Arctic.

EDIT - The Rangers are an excellent force for Arctic patrolling, but a .303 Enfield against an American icebreaker or Russian Akula sub is not a winning equation for Canada.

[ziggy]

They use the 303 because it works in allmost any condition.
After watching the episode on hero ships of the nautilus going to the arctic years ago I dont think that nuclear subs are the way to go either.

Supplying the arctic isnt rocket science,its just a logistical nightmare for someone who hasnt been there.
So it makes me wonder why when we have had these shortages for years up there and now all of a sudden everyones worried and has all these solutions when they cant even keep the people supplied with food and fuel.
Theres a brutal amount of red tape involved to do anything up there,you could double that if the CF was involved.
Nothing moves fast in the Arctic is an old saying and very true.

Plus you also have the "whitey tax" to deal with.

[Tman1]

How many topics do we need on this? It's just the same old rhetoric "we're going to do this, we're going to do that blah blah blah". I see some here agree.

[ziggy]

Tman1 Tman1:

How many topics do we need on this? It's just the same old rhetoric "we're going to do this, we're going to do that blah blah blah". I see some here agree.

They start out as fearmongering topics,then peeps get concerned for a few days and have grandiose plans of ice breakers and huge ports,then the fear dies down and someone posts another one.

[fifeboy]

ziggy ziggy:

Plus you also have the "whitey tax" to deal with.

OK, I'll bite, what is the "whitey tax?"

And you are right about the .303

[fifeboy]

ziggy ziggy:

Tman1 Tman1:

How many topics do we need on this? It's just the same old rhetoric "we're going to do this, we're going to do that blah blah blah". I see some here agree.

They start out as fearmongering topics,then peeps get concerned for a few days and have grandiose plans of ice breakers and huge ports,then the fear dies down and someone posts another one.

I remember back when Canada was making it's last big fighter jet purchase (CF-18 perhaps??) it was suggested that the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming and sending subs that surfaced in Canadian arctic waters. Someone suggested that we buy a large fleet of Dash 7's and we could fly troops up to and around the arctic and get a Warrant Officer to walk up to the sub and hammer on it's side, demanding passports. It was an idea.

[ziggy]

fifeboy fifeboy:

ziggy ziggy:

Plus you also have the "whitey tax" to deal with.

OK, I'll bite, what is the "whitey tax?"

And you are right about the .303

Well,if you want 6 of anything you ship 7,doesnt matter what it is either.
If it has to go through expediters,airports or post offices theres a good chance if it even gets there that it will have been "inspected" at every point.

3 for them,one for us.
I learned to order 2 of anything after awhile,you want ten drums of fuel flown in?You order twelve,need an alternator for the hoe from winnipeg? You order 2 and get one.
When packing luggage I allways spread my smokes and winter wear out in each bag because sometimes they just wouldnt get there untill every baggage handler in nunavut took what they wanted out of it,if one bag got through I was laughing.
We even had a pool at camp about whos bags would arrive with the owners and how many days it would be before they got there if they ever did.

Thats the whitey tax.

[saturn_656]

ziggy ziggy:

Well,if you want 6 of anything you ship 7,doesnt matter what it is either.
If it has to go through expediters,airports or post offices theres a good chance if it even gets there that it will have been "inspected" at every point.

3 for them,one for us.
I learned to order 2 of anything after awhile,you want ten drums of fuel flown in?You order twelve,need an alternator for the hoe from winnipeg? You order 2 and get one.
When packing luggage I allways spread my smokes and winter wear out in each bag because sometimes they just wouldnt get there untill every baggage handler in nunavut took what they wanted out of it,if one bag got through I was laughing.
We even had a pool at camp about whos bags would arrive with the owners and how many days it would be before they got there if they ever did.

Thats the whitey tax.

Don't tell me that is an accepted cost of doing business...

[ziggy]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

ziggy ziggy:

Well,if you want 6 of anything you ship 7,doesnt matter what it is either.
If it has to go through expediters,airports or post offices theres a good chance if it even gets there that it will have been "inspected" at every point.

3 for them,one for us.
I learned to order 2 of anything after awhile,you want ten drums of fuel flown in?You order twelve,need an alternator for the hoe from winnipeg? You order 2 and get one.
When packing luggage I allways spread my smokes and winter wear out in each bag because sometimes they just wouldnt get there untill every baggage handler in nunavut took what they wanted out of it,if one bag got through I was laughing.
We even had a pool at camp about whos bags would arrive with the owners and how many days it would be before they got there if they ever did.

Thats the whitey tax.

Don't tell me that is an accepted cost of doing business...

It is,if you dont like it then you may find yourself out on the tundra naked in -50 or left freezing waiting for fuel that will never come.

I've met the "Don's" of the north,theres a way to get things done,palms to be greased,people to be employed,goods to be distributed.

If you ever fly in the north watch how they unload your baggage if you can,they will rotate it a few times and then stop,if theres a bottle in that bag it's going into the "special section" of the cargo van and when it shows up it will be cleaned out.