[Blue_Nose]

I'm going to start flagging, Scrappy.

It seems our last encounter consisted of you trashing this site and its administrator and it moderation. You're surprised I reacted the way I did?

[Canadian_Mind]

bootlegga bootlegga:

If you can't see the parallel, then you must be blind. The Liberals spend a small fortune on a weapons platform, and then the Conservative government that comes into office plans on eliminating it.

Dief's PCs considered something better too...remember the Bomarc?

I'm sure you could understand though that Bomarc was a royal fuck up on the conservatives part. However purchasing brand-new arctic capable submarines at or near to the same cost that it would be to fix the current out-classed, obsolete, non-arctic capable vessels does make sense. Our navy boys can sneak up within firing range of a British carrier during exercises in our current rust buckets, imagine what we could do with a 212.

[kevlarman]

Beautiful... just friggin beautiful... Those U214's sure look sweet and for the same price the Liberal's purchased four sorry-ass second-hand LEMON subs from the British we could've had at least six new subs.


Here's a link to the U214 (the version of the U212 that is for sale outside of Germany) that we could be replacing these sorry old Vic's with at least as many if not more U214's.

http://www.submarineresearch.com/u214.html

And there are rumours that PM and his crew are leaning towards this submarine to be the old Vic's replacement.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1909308/posts

The U214 Submarine...

Crew 30 -
Depth 400 m (1,312 ft) -
Endurance 84 day -
Length 65 m -
Max Range 22,200 km (11,987 nm) -
Max Weight 2,000 t -
Min Weight 1,700 t -
Top Speed 10 mps (20 kt) -
Torpedo Tubes 8 -
Width 6.3 m -

[Scape]

The problem isn't the subs its the sub program itself, it's anemic.

[kevlarman]

And to that end, I would agree. An infusion of new equipment necessarily won't make things absolutely right but they should improve things a bit seeing as how one of our problems is a lack of submarines to fill a descent submarine program. Hopefully, this is the new start the submarine program requires.

[TheQuietKidd]

I've also got to think that buying the new subs, and throwing all the publicity at the beautiful, brand new Navy stuff would be great for recruiting.
"Look, we've got these awesome new pieces of equipment!" works a lot better than "Look, we've patched up all the big holes in these wonderful 30 year old beasts!"
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Navy could use a jump in recruits...

So yeah, I vote we scrap (or at least put on hold the Victorias) and go with the new German Diesels.
Maybe once they've got a strong sub plan they can patch up the Victorias and use 'em for close to shore patol, or close to home, unfrozen waters missions.

[Canadian_Mind]

Heh, wonder if we could take the 214 design and alter it to have a titanium pressure hull.

[sasquatch2]

Actually I really favour the new German boats. I had the pleasure (sarcasm) of tripping in a Soviet diesel attack boat and I can still hear that f*****in hull creak.

The Victorias are suitable for harbour defence. (within ice free waters) Their dismal discretion rate is not so much a problem and silence is a very potent deterant to threats to shipping.

The German boats are optimised for operations in close waters-----------North Sea and Baltic. They are literally a hole in the water------they are so hard to find whales bump into them. german subs own the Baltic.

[Regina]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

I'm going to start flagging, Scrappy.

It seems our last encounter consisted of you trashing this site and its administrator and it moderation. You're surprised I reacted the way I did?

I never saw her slag the mods here. In fact she usually had good things to say.............unless that's changed.?

[kevlarman]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Heh, wonder if we could take the 214 design and alter it to have a titanium pressure hull.

Oooh... that would be sweet. And if memory serves me correct, those 214's ain't even diesel at all. They're hydrogen fuel cell, making them ultra quiet.

Ha ha ha! This is starting to sound like a bunch of hot rod enthusiasts pining for the newest thing from Detroit!

An excerpt from the site talking about the U214 design...

http://www.submarineresearch.com/u214.html

$1:

In Sweden research was in full swing on an air independent engine called the Sterling Engine. This research was taking a different route to non-nuclear submerged propulsion than its German counterpart. HDW worked with Siemens, a giant German electrical manufacturing company similar to General Electric. At Siemens the emphasis for submarine propulsive power research was the fuel cell. In simplest terms the fuel cell is a submarine battery that can not only be charged by traditional means of current generation, but can be continuously charged by the chemical generation of renewed electrolyte. While the United States had similar interest in the possibility of a fuel cell in the 1950s it had invested so much money into the development of a submarine nuclear reactor that a basic decision was made to concentrate all resources on the nuclear propulsion program.

Because a fuel cell is quiet and a nuclear power plant in noisy experts on submarine propulsion often argue that total reliance on nuclear propulsion is short-sighted. Additionally, the cost of an HDW submarine is about one fifth the cost of a Virginia class submarine. Having said this, one cannot compare cost since the missions and comprehensive capabilities are so divergent.

HDW's most recent submarines, the U-212 and 214 are popular with other nations and those having even the smallest shore desire the prestige of having a submarine force. As a result the United States needs to have a thorough knowledge of how the fuel cell works and what, if any, the prolification of submarine building might have on our submarine fleet.

[Streaker]

kevlarman kevlarman:

Streaker Streaker:

The usual Conservative mouth-breathers are shamelessly choosing to play politics with this issue, it seems. No surprises there!

Oh... And so what do you call this

Streaker Streaker:

Reminds me more of the Conservatives' cancellation of the Arrow....

Hmmm... Sounds to me like someone's playing by "special" rules here, what playbook did you pull those rules from? Did you get them from, Chretien or Martin's

You were playing politics here before you even accused someone else of doing that. So let's just be adult enough to play the politics without whining about it.

Stop being an idiot.

Conservatives such as yourself have been whining about the Victorias for years, and are now willing to trash what should be a perfectly viable sub in order to score political points against the Liberals.

Shame!


And if you think that we could buy those U-214s at a lower cost than fixing up the Victorias, you're bananas.

Plus, the U-214s have had their own share of teething troubles.

[Streaker]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Streaker Streaker:

Reminds me more of the Conservatives' cancellation of the Arrow....

Funny, wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago that you said the subs weren't a priority and had a bunch of righties try and tear you a new a$$hole? Looks like you were right, Streaker.

Yes.... As I recall, it was charmingly suggested that I would get my ass kicked from one end of the Navy dockyard to the other, simply for arguing that the powers-that-be were neglecting the programme.

[kevlarman]

Streaker Streaker:

Stop being an idiot.

It is quite clear you DO NOT know how to talk to people. If you had the cure for cancer typed right below it. It would not matter in the slightest as myself and plenty of other folks would just stop. Stop right were you got needlessly offensive and TUNE YOU OUT for the rest of your rant.

Part of debating is to attempt to win someone over to your point of view. Abviously that is not something you have in mind. And debating is NOT something you are engaging in. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind to explain why it is that you respond the way you do is that you DO NOT like what is being said and so you'll torpedo the whole thread by getting as OFFENSIVE as you know how to be.

If you keep this up, the same thing is likely to happen as what happened the last time you and I got offensive. The thread will be locked up. Nothing of merit will have been said by either side and you will have gotten your way again.


Too bad you have to play the spoiled child routine. Next time, if you decide you need to comment, my suggestion is to be constructive, NOT deconstructive. The thread will have a longer lifespan and opinions of you may yet go up.

But just in case you don't want to go that route of being useful to this debate than prepare to be ignored.

[DerbyX]

kevlarman kevlarman:

Streaker Streaker:

Stop being an idiot.

It is quite clear you DO NOT know how to talk to people. If you had the cure for cancer typed right below it. It would not matter in the slightest as myself and plenty of other folks would just stop. Stop right were you got needlessly offensive and TUNE YOU OUT for the rest of your rant.

Part of debating is to attempt to win someone over to your point of view. Abviously that is not something you have in mind. And debating is NOT something you are engaging in. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind to explain why it is that you respond the way you do is that you DO NOT like what is being said and so you'll torpedo the whole thread by getting as OFFENSIVE as you know how to be.

If you keep this up, the same thing is likely to happen as what happened the last time you and I got offensive. The thread will be locked up. Nothing of merit will have been said by either side and you will have gotten your way again.


Too bad you have to play the spoiled child routine. Next time, if you decide you need to comment, my suggestion is to be constructive, NOT deconstructive. The thread will have a longer lifespan and opinions of you may yet go up.

But just in case you don't want to go that route of being useful to this debate than prepare to be ignored.

You were the one who started it with the usual anti-Liberal rhetoric. Streaker was just responding in kind and being quite nice about it also.

[Streaker]

kevlarman kevlarman:

Streaker Streaker:

Stop being an idiot.

It is quite clear you DO NOT know how to talk to people. If you had the cure for cancer typed right below it. It would not matter in the slightest as myself and plenty of other folks would just stop. Stop right were you got needlessly offensive and TUNE YOU OUT for the rest of your rant.

Part of debating is to attempt to win someone over to your point of view. Abviously that is not something you have in mind. And debating is NOT something you are engaging in. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind to explain why it is that you respond the way you do is that you DO NOT like what is being said and so you'll torpedo the whole thread by getting as OFFENSIVE as you know how to be.

If you keep this up, the same thing is likely to happen as what happened the last time you and I got offensive. The thread will be locked up. Nothing of merit will have been said by either side and you will have gotten your way again.


Too bad you have to play the spoiled child routine. Next time, if you decide you need to comment, my suggestion is to be constructive, NOT deconstructive. The thread will have a longer lifespan and opinions of you may yet go up.

But just in case you don't want to go that route of being useful to this debate than prepare to be ignored.