[herbie]

$1:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

So you don't support your own citizenship?

[CharlesAnthony]

The Answer: "Diversity is our strength!" said the traitor.






In The Anarcky, citizenship are sold on auction to the highest bidders.

[Sunnyways]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

Luckily “birth tourism” is a non-issue since it’s actually not that common. In 2016 , the last year data was available, there were barely 300 babies born in Canada to “non-Canadians”. And that number would include Americans, Aussies, and others in the country innocently and for other reasons. In fact I bet that’s most of them. It’s actually not that easy for a foreigner to just hop on a plane and have a baby in Canada for a number of reasons. And even if they did, citizenship isn’t actually automatic and neither the parents nor the baby have any right to stay in Canada after the birth. Only when that baby becomes an adult can they return to Canada and apply for citizenship. So the lack of near-term payoff is a major disincentive.

The “citizenship of convenience” issue we’ve heard about largely involves not “birth tourism” or “anchor babies” but globally mobile people who have legal status in more than one country - for example the alleged class of wealthy Chinese who mostly live abroad but have Canadian citizenship because they immigrated here for a period (as opposed to being born here). That’s a different concept altogether though.

I suspect there is a bigger issue than that with temporary workers who fall in a grey zone. They are not Canadian technically. As I pointed out earlier I was such a person for six years.

[Prof_Chomsky]

herbie herbie:

$1:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

So you don't support your own citizenship?

I support automatic birthright citizenship for children who have at least 1 Canadian parent, regardless of where that kid is born.

I do not support automatic birthright citizenship for children who happen to (or were planned to) be born while on vacation in Canada. They're intentionally looking for a loophole to exploit, and it's not only unfair to Canadians. It's unfair to the legion of legal immigrants who want to earn their place here, but have reduced quotas due to other forms of less savory immigration, like birth tourism.

[Sunnyways]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

herbie herbie:

$1:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

So you don't support your own citizenship?

I support automatic birthright citizenship for children who have at least 1 Canadian parent, regardless of where that kid is born.

I do not support automatic birthright citizenship for children who happen to (or were planned to) be born while on vacation in Canada. They're intentionally looking for a loophole to exploit, and it's not only unfair to Canadians. It's unfair to the legion of legal immigrants who want to earn their place here, but have reduced quotas due to other forms of less savory immigration, like birth tourism.

So to be clear - just for children born in Canada to citizens or permanent residents?

Most of us would agree that the children of tourists should be excluded.

[Prof_Chomsky]

Sunnyways Sunnyways:

So to be clear - just for children born in Canada to citizens or permanent residents?

Most of us would agree that the children of tourists should be excluded.

I think any child of any Canadian citizen, born anywhere, is Canadian. It's not your fault if your wife goes into premature labour in Australia. And you can't expect Australia to take care of him. His parents are Canadian, so is the kid.

Permanent residents, I'm not sure honestly. On one hand I think if you want your kids to be citizens, you best get your citizenship. On the other, I feel bad for those kids if their parents are permanent residents and then the kid gets the screw over it.

[BeaverFever]

herbie herbie:

$1:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

So you don't support your own citizenship?

By “outright” I mean without any other considerations. It should only be automatic and an entlemeny if at least 1 parent is a citizen or PR.

I’d be open to the government considering cases for children born here to foreigners who are not citizens or PRs (e.g. students or people on long-term work permits) and the children be allowed to *apply for* citizenship under certain circumstances BUT it should be based on the merits of the situation as opposed to an automatic birthright for example residency requirements and some kind of enduring relationship with Canada should be established. We also have an obligation not to create stateless people so if the parents’ home country refuses citizenship that should be a factor to consider.

[herbie]

High school buddy was brought here by his parents when he was 3 months old. Dad was a Pole, mom a Scot who met during the war. No idea about his parents status, but I knew the guy from 6 yrs old to when we lost touch in university.
Didn't bother to try to vote the first election, he found out when he went to join the Navy at 21. His 2 younger brothers were citizens. He did get his too, but he had to wait for like 5 years more back then. How fucked up!
So regardless of the parent's status add to your list if a kid born here and stays until he's 18, Canada's all it knows so citizenship should be granted automatically. If the kid's whipped back to China after it's born, that's another story.

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

Luckily “birth tourism” is a non-issue since it’s actually not that common. In 2016 , the last year data was available, there were barely 300 babies born in Canada to “non-Canadians”. And that number would include Americans, Aussies, and others in the country innocently and for other reasons.

Are you sure that's all there is to it. At the bottom of the article they say:

"A leaked report from Kenney’s ministry estimated that there were fewer than 500 “birth tourists” — a fraction of Canada’s total 360,000 births. Nevertheless, in 2016, a B.C. government report obtained by Postmedia identified at least 26 “birth houses” in the province catering to non-resident women. A Postmedia analysis also found that one in five births at Richmond Hospital were to non-resident mothers."

Also:

"Richmond Hospital, the epicentre of the birth tourism phenomenon. In 2012 the hospital was forced to sue for payment of a $300,000 unpaid bill left by a non-resident mother."

And currently we have all these Roxham Road style border jumpers...

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don’t support so-called “automatic birthright” citizenship outright as a matter of principle.

Luckily “birth tourism” is a non-issue since it’s actually not that common. In 2016 , the last year data was available, there were barely 300 babies born in Canada to “non-Canadians”. And that number would include Americans, Aussies, and others in the country innocently and for other reasons.

Are you sure that's all there is to it. At the bottom of the article they say:

"A leaked report from Kenney’s ministry estimated that there were fewer than 500 “birth tourists” — a fraction of Canada’s total 360,000 births. Nevertheless, in 2016, a B.C. government report obtained by Postmedia identified at least 26 “birth houses” in the province catering to non-resident women. A Postmedia analysis also found that one in five births at Richmond Hospital were to non-resident mothers."

Also:

"Richmond Hospital, the epicentre of the birth tourism phenomenon. In 2012 the hospital was forced to sue for payment of a $300,000 unpaid bill left by a non-resident mother."

If you follow the link in that paragraph:

$1:

Gavin Wilson, spokesman for VCH, said there are no plans to raise prices for maternity services. And he debunked any notion that there may be too many birth tourists in Richmond.

“We operate a hospital in a community where over 60 per cent of the residents are immigrants, some of whom are at different stages of their immigration/residency process,” he said. “Some patients are newly landed immigrants who are processing their papers, which can take months to a year. Some are here on temporary visas, studying at a university, for example, and have their baby while they are here. Some have a second home here and choose to give birth here rather than … in China.”

[N_Fiddledog]

Well if we're going to follow it let's start from the beginning:

$1:

Health ministry investigators are aware of more than two dozen so-called birth houses in B.C. offering pregnant foreign mothers temporary room and board before and after giving birth in local hospitals, according to Freedom of Information documents obtained by Postmedia.

The baby houses, as they are called in Asia, are used by women seeking instant Canadian citizenship for their newborns.

The internal briefing document, titled Birth by Non-B.C. Residents, was created in response to a Vancouver Sun story last year about the three-fold increase since 2009 of non-resident births.

A department in Victoria called the Audit and Investigations Branch, Eligibility, Compliance and Enforcement Unit (ECEU) knows about 26 private residences offering hospitality services to foreign pregnant women. It said the residences are used by two groups.

‘Birth tourists’ believed to be using Canada’s citizenship laws as back door into the West
The first includes those in Canada on a temporary resident document, such as a tourist visa, work or study permit. They come to deliver a baby “who by birth is then granted Canadian citizenship status.” They do not access Medical Services Plan-funded benefits and “they declare themselves as self-pay at hospitals and to doctors.”

The second category includes permanent residents properly enrolled in MSP, but at some point cease to meet the definition under the Medicare Protection Act. They return to their country of origin but remain enrolled in the MSP. They then return to B.C. to have a baby and since they still have MSP coverage, bills related to the mother and baby are billed to the plan. They stay long enough to obtain a birth certificate, a Canadian passport and enrolment in MSP for the baby before returning to their country of origin.

The ECEU conducts regular reviews of individuals who cease to meet the definition of a resident under the Medicare Protection Act, according to the documents. The next paragraphs were censored by government for fear of harm to law enforcement. The documents say the cost of non-resident births was $693,869.20 in the 2014-2015 fiscal year:

“The health authorities recover approximately 50 per cent of their amount outstanding, Pharmacare and MSP costs are recovered by the Ministry of Finance.”

Investigators have found no evidence of “forged or counterfeit” Care Cards or B.C. Services Cards, nor did they find evidence to warrant a referral to law enforcement.

Earlier this month, Postmedia reported 295 of the 1,938 babies born at Richmond Hospital for the year ended March 31 were delivered to foreign Chinese mothers.

So that's 300 in just one year from just one hospital. What was your stat again?

This right here, wasn't it?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Luckily “birth tourism” is a non-issue since it’s actually not that common. In 2016 , the last year data was available, there were barely 300 babies born in Canada to “non-Canadians”.

But yeah it's nice to hear this Gavin Wilson guy is happy with it all whatever the actual stats turn out to be. At least there's 2 happy Canadians. You and Gavin.

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Well if we're going to follow it let's start from the beginning:

$1:

Health ministry investigators are aware of more than two dozen so-called birth houses in B.C. offering pregnant foreign mothers temporary room and board before and after giving birth in local hospitals, according to Freedom of Information documents obtained by Postmedia.

The baby houses, as they are called in Asia, are used by women seeking instant Canadian citizenship for their newborns.

The internal briefing document, titled Birth by Non-B.C. Residents, was created in response to a Vancouver Sun story last year about the three-fold increase since 2009 of non-resident births.

A department in Victoria called the Audit and Investigations Branch, Eligibility, Compliance and Enforcement Unit (ECEU) knows about 26 private residences offering hospitality services to foreign pregnant women. It said the residences are used by two groups.

‘Birth tourists’ believed to be using Canada’s citizenship laws as back door into the West
The first includes those in Canada on a temporary resident document, such as a tourist visa, work or study permit. They come to deliver a baby “who by birth is then granted Canadian citizenship status.” They do not access Medical Services Plan-funded benefits and “they declare themselves as self-pay at hospitals and to doctors.”

The second category includes permanent residents properly enrolled in MSP, but at some point cease to meet the definition under the Medicare Protection Act. They return to their country of origin but remain enrolled in the MSP. They then return to B.C. to have a baby and since they still have MSP coverage, bills related to the mother and baby are billed to the plan. They stay long enough to obtain a birth certificate, a Canadian passport and enrolment in MSP for the baby before returning to their country of origin.

The ECEU conducts regular reviews of individuals who cease to meet the definition of a resident under the Medicare Protection Act, according to the documents. The next paragraphs were censored by government for fear of harm to law enforcement. The documents say the cost of non-resident births was $693,869.20 in the 2014-2015 fiscal year:

“The health authorities recover approximately 50 per cent of their amount outstanding, Pharmacare and MSP costs are recovered by the Ministry of Finance.”

Investigators have found no evidence of “forged or counterfeit” Care Cards or B.C. Services Cards, nor did they find evidence to warrant a referral to law enforcement.

Earlier this month, Postmedia reported 295 of the 1,938 babies born at Richmond Hospital for the year ended March 31 were delivered to foreign Chinese mothers.

So that's 300 in just one year from just one hospital. What was your stat again?

$1:

Live births, by place of residence of mother

Place of residence of mother outside Canada: 313

Place of residence of mother outside Canada includes live births to mothers who are non-residents of Canada and births with unknown country of residence of mother. Data by place of residence outside Canada have been revised for 2007.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... 1310041401


I guess the question is what does “foreign Chinese mother” mean in the article you’ve quoted above

[N_Fiddledog]

I used the link you suggested, except I started from the beginning. Why? Is there something wrong with that one?

Surely you're not saying Gavin isn't actually content with the amount of birth tourists in Richmond as the clip you selected suggests?

[BeaverFever]

I’m just saying there’s a discrepancy between the number Post Media came up with and the official number at Stats Canada (which I found from a link in a Global article on the topic BTW). The guy interviewed in the article doesn’t seem to think it’s red alert issue.

[Sunnyways]

You'd think births by tourists would be relatively easy to track.