[DanSC]

Welcome to the Internet Age, where literally everything is Nazis.

[Thanos]

Knock yourself out Bart. More like you can't say anthing because you know I'm 100% right about the current GOP being a monstrosity and an embarrassment. I'm just glad I live in Canada so I don't have to put up with the likes of Ben Carson. Canada's different enough that I never have to worry about someone like that ever becoming the leader of my country. I don't think that American exceptionalism was meant to include having the daffiest clown one could find becoming the leader of the nation, and of the entire free world. You people were supposed to lead the rest of us by example, not by going so far out on the craziest limb of the tree you could find and then have no possible hope of ever returning to what you used to be.

[DanSC]

Thanos Thanos:

I'm just glad I live in Canada so I don't have to put up with the likes of Ben Carson. Canada's different enough that I never have to worry about someone like that ever becoming the leader of my country.

At least our crazies who aspire to be Head of Government can also fix your brain. What actually useful purpose does Elizabeth May serve?

[BartSimpson]

Thanos Thanos:

I'm just glad I live in Canada

I am, too.

[DrCaleb]

DanSC DanSC:

Thanos Thanos:

I'm just glad I live in Canada so I don't have to put up with the likes of Ben Carson. Canada's different enough that I never have to worry about someone like that ever becoming the leader of my country.

At least our crazies who aspire to be Head of Government can also fix your brain. What actually useful purpose does Elizabeth May serve?

Future planning.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3280521

When Mrs. May embarrassed herself, she was drunk. What's Donald Trumps' excuse?

[DanSC]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

What's Donald Trumps' excuse?

Mr. Trump can always go back to his previous position as a TV presenter.

[DrCaleb]

DanSC DanSC:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

What's Donald Trumps' excuse?

Mr. Trump can always go back to his previous position as a TV presenter.

No, he can't. He got fired, as did 'Miss America' pagent.

[BartSimpson]

Have you seen the ratings that Trump has delivered in the debates? Seriously, Dr. C - if Trump doesn't win the election someone's going to put Trump on TV. He's worth too much money.

[Delwin]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

romanP romanP:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

A vegan in a Hummer pollutes far less than a meat eater on a bike.

that, i'm not so sure about. the harm done is probably comparable.

A cow produces between 100 and 500 liters of Methane a day depending on who you ask. Methane is 23 times the heat trapping gas that Carbon Dioxide is. Let's call it 250 liters per day, and equivalent to 5700 liters of CO2.

Calculating the density of Methane at 1 atmosphere, I get 0.64 g/L, times 5700 liters, that's 3.6Kg of methane per day. Or 1300kg per year, per cow. Let's say you can eat 1 cow per month (whether it gets eaten or not, it still was born, lived and died). That's 16,100 kg per year of greenhouse gasses.

According to to the DOE, the Hummer H3T with the 5.3l engine emits 9.5 metric tonnes of CO2 per year. 9500kg, compared to the cow's 16,100kg.

I'd say they were not comparable. Double the CO2 emissions for the meat eater, and we aren't even counting things like the health risk, deforestation or ocean dead zones from excess nitrate runoff.

That's why I'm starting to not believe groups like the Sierra Club or Greenpeace when they whine about the Oilsands. Small potatoes, right beside the rib eye they had for lunch.

Your calculation is insanely wrong. Cows produce about 100kg of methane a year. The weight and volume of the 2 are not interchangeable in your calculation. Methane is 23 times more powerful as a green house gas by mass. The molecular weight is 16.04g/mol. the molecular weight of carbon dioxide is 44.01.g/mol. The density of CO2 is 1.977 kg/m3 (gas at 1 atm and 0 °C). The density of methane is 0.716 kg/M3 (gas, 0 °C, 1 atm). You cant say that methane is 23 times more powerful as a mass, then without converting say that they are it is also 23 times more powerful by volume because the densities are different.

Even using 500l per day as your benchmark, which is the highest estimate I've seen, at .64g / l we have 320g per day x 365 = 116.8kg of Methane. If we multiple this by 23 we get the equivalent of 2686kg of CO2.
An average feed steer of 1200 lbs will yeild about 700 lbs of beef. The average Canadian eats an average of 100g of beef per day or 36.5 kg per year or 80.3 lbs. Who exactly is eating a cow a month ?

[DrCaleb]

Delwin Delwin:

Your calculation is insanely wrong.

Insanely! That's a strong word.

Delwin Delwin:

Cows produce about 100kg of methane a year.

$1:

Some experts say 100 liters to 200 liters a day (or about 26 gallons to about 53 gallons), while others say it's up to 500 liters (about 132 gallons) a day. In any case, that's a lot of methane, an amount comparable to the pollution produced by a car in a day.

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammal ... ne-cow.htm

Which is why I chose a middle of the road 250l/day.

Delwin Delwin:

The weight and volume of the 2 are not interchangeable in your calculation.

Which is why I converted it from litres to grams/litre, and used the mole triangle to convert it to grams/kilograms, and assumed 1 atmosphere for both gasses. (Because when they were tested for hear absorption, that what they were tested at)

PV=nRT
n=(PV)/(RT)
n=((1atm)(1L))/((0.0821R)(25+273))
n=1/24.4658

n=0.04mols/L CH4

Using the mole triangle for the moles -> grams conversion,

gCH4=0.04(molCH4/L)*16.05(g/molCH4)
gCH4=0.64g/L (rounded)

Not so insane, am I? Well, not in this, at least.

Delwin Delwin:

Methane is 23 times more powerful as a green house gas by mass.

How do you figure this?

Delwin Delwin:

The molecular weight is 16.04g/mol. the molecular weight of carbon dioxide is 44.01.g/mol. The density of CO2 is 1.977 kg/m3 (gas at 1 atm and 0 °C). The density of methane is 0.716 kg/M3 (gas, 0 °C, 1 atm). You cant say that methane is 23 times more powerful as a mass, then without converting say that they are it is also 23 times more powerful by volume because the densities are different.

You may be right there. I just tried to keep units the same, as it was just meant to be a back of the hand calculation, not a doctoral thesis.

Delwin Delwin:

Even using 500l per day as your benchmark, which is the highest estimate I've seen, at .64g / l we have 320g per day x 365 = 116.8kg of Methane. If we multiple this by 23 we get the equivalent of 2686kg of CO2.

Ok, we'll use that. But I also neglected all the secondary things, like how much water does it take to feed the cow? How much water and fertilizer does it take to grow the feed for the cow? How much CO2 is not sequestered by the forest that was cleared to grow crops to feed the cow?

Eating meat take a huge toll on the environment, much more than driving vehicles. The point being, any discussion about mitigating climate change should include this fact.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

But, yeah. People ignored Hitler and millions died because of it.

millions have died because of a century of American imperialism. you focus on the little threat that isn't actually harming anyone outside of its borders while ignoring the big threat that already exists and has already done plenty of damage outside of its borders.

[romanP]

DanSC DanSC:

Welcome to the Internet Age, where literally everything is Nazis.

and sometimes they really are Nazis. reddit is a recruiting ground for Stormfront, fyi.

[Delwin]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Delwin Delwin:

Your calculation is insanely wrong.

Insanely! That's a strong word.

Delwin Delwin:

Cows produce about 100kg of methane a year.

$1:

Some experts say 100 liters to 200 liters a day (or about 26 gallons to about 53 gallons), while others say it's up to 500 liters (about 132 gallons) a day. In any case, that's a lot of methane, an amount comparable to the pollution produced by a car in a day.

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammal ... ne-cow.htm

Which is why I chose a middle of the road 250l/day.

Delwin Delwin:

The weight and volume of the 2 are not interchangeable in your calculation.

Which is why I converted it from litres to grams/litre, and used the mole triangle to convert it to grams/kilograms, and assumed 1 atmosphere for both gasses. (Because when they were tested for hear absorption, that what they were tested at)

PV=nRT
n=(PV)/(RT)
n=((1atm)(1L))/((0.0821R)(25+273))
n=1/24.4658

n=0.04mols/L CH4

Using the mole triangle for the moles -> grams conversion,

gCH4=0.04(molCH4/L)*16.05(g/molCH4)
gCH4=0.64g/L (rounded)

Not so insane, am I? Well, not in this, at least.

Delwin Delwin:

Methane is 23 times more powerful as a green house gas by mass.

How do you figure this?

Delwin Delwin:

The molecular weight is 16.04g/mol. the molecular weight of carbon dioxide is 44.01.g/mol. The density of CO2 is 1.977 kg/m3 (gas at 1 atm and 0 °C). The density of methane is 0.716 kg/M3 (gas, 0 °C, 1 atm). You cant say that methane is 23 times more powerful as a mass, then without converting say that they are it is also 23 times more powerful by volume because the densities are different.

You may be right there. I just tried to keep units the same, as it was just meant to be a back of the hand calculation, not a doctoral thesis.

Delwin Delwin:

Even using 500l per day as your benchmark, which is the highest estimate I've seen, at .64g / l we have 320g per day x 365 = 116.8kg of Methane. If we multiple this by 23 we get the equivalent of 2686kg of CO2.

Ok, we'll use that. But I also neglected all the secondary things, like how much water does it take to feed the cow? How much water and fertilizer does it take to grow the feed for the cow? How much CO2 is not sequestered by the forest that was cleared to grow crops to feed the cow?

Eating meat take a huge toll on the environment, much more than driving vehicles. The point being, any discussion about mitigating climate change should include this fact.

Ok, fair enough, your error was stating that 250 L of methane was equivalent to 5700L of C02 in terms of Global warming potential. Since the density of Co2 is 2.76 times greater than methane in normal atmosphere, and since the estimate of GWP(global warming potential) of methane being 23 time greater than co2 is based on mass. If methane has 23 times greater GWP by mass, then it can only 8.33 times greater by volume in normal atmosphere.

The calculations for GWP vary depending on who you ask but most hold methane as between 20 and 30 times greater potential over 100 years. this calculation always uses mass since mass is constant while volume and density varies according to atmospheric conditions, as you had eluded to earlier. It is important to consider that CO2 lasts much longer in the atmosphere as well. ~1000 years for co2 vs ~10 years for methane.

The GWP calculations are are a reflection of the damage averaged over 100 years. In the short term, CH4 can be ~80 times more effective at trapping gases but because it last for so short a time in the atmosphere, its GWP is diminished.

I agree it should always be included in the discussion. And yes, insananely was strong, I have a flare for the dramatic.

[DrCaleb]

[romanP]

DanSC DanSC:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

What's Donald Trumps' excuse?

Mr. Trump can always go back to his previous position as a TV presenter.

i don't think he plans to quit even if he becomes president.

the script of Robocop becomes more absurdly real every day.