[2Cdo]

andyt andyt:

You can force somebody into treatment, the question is if it will do any good. Some addictions professionals think it can..

Okay, I worded it wrong and you can force them in but you can't force them to be successful. And I wouldn't expect the addictions professionals to say anything different from what you posted because they have a vested interest in maintaining their jobs.

[andyt]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

andyt andyt:

You can force somebody into treatment, the question is if it will do any good. Some addictions professionals think it can..

Okay, I worded it wrong and you can force them in but you can't force them to be successful. And I wouldn't expect the addictions professionals to say anything different from what you posted because they have a vested interest in maintaining their jobs.

Who knows. If you'd been locked up with no access to smokes for a couple of years, and knew that if your craving for smokes made you do crimes for which you'd be locked up without smokes for another couple of years, maybe you would have have been forced to be successful.

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You had to know this was coming.

And it's a bout time. I've never thought non-violent crime was worthy of jail time. Which is why I hate Harpers 'tough on crime' stance. He tends to do exactly the wrong thing.

I dunno, I'm starting to become a crotchety old man like FOG. We just had a case here where a burglar got into a fight with the homeowner and shot the homeowner dead. The burglar was then caught when he was breaking into another home that same night. Typical case of the bad guy having a rap sheet a mile long, was just out of prison for a brief stint for his last crimes. I don't know if he had any convictions for violent crimes, I think these were property crimes.

Even the VPD, which is a pretty mellow police department these days, has published rap sheets of people with a long string of convictions, suggesting maybe a 20 times and you're out policy. Ie people who just keep committing crimes, usually to feed a habit, should be spending a good long time locked up, because they are not getting the message. So it's not one particular non-violent crime that gets you a long sentence, but a string of them.

OTOH, this killing makes me think again, we should legalize all drugs. Just give a guy like the one above the drugs he's doing all that robbing for, and maybe it would keep him quiet and his victims alive.

Alternatively, if we could ensure that prisons really were drug free,so a guy like this would spend a good long time without access to drugs, maybe it would clean him up. But I wonder if prison authorities actually turn a blind eye to drugs because it keeps the prisoners quiet, and is a lot cheaper than building prisons (instead of overcrowding them) and providing actual rehabilitation for prisoners.

What's for sure is that our prison system isn't working very well, with many coming out worse than they went in. And unless we're going to lock everybody up for life, that's not a good thing, no matter our lust for revenge.

TBH some non violent crime shouldn't involve incarceration for a first offense but, if you've screwed people over and ruined their lives or, are a habitual criminal then you deserve prison time and the longer the better.

If you make the non violent crime = no jail a time blanket policy then, you'll be allowing people like Bernie Madoff off with a slap on the wrist which, while nice for them and doesn't cost as much to the taxpayer for incarceration costs isn't exactly justice, is it?

[rickc]

I do not think that "non violent crime" is the catch prhase we should be throwing around here. How about "vicimless crime" instead? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/1 ... 14884.html
Over half of the prisoners in federal prison are there for drug offenses, up from 16% in 1970. What a wastes of tax dollars incarcerating (basically warehousing ) people who could be working and paying taxes. Their families would not be on public assistance. Some of these drugs like cannabis, we could actually be generating tax dollars on the legal sale of. I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted incarcerating people convicted of "victimless crimes".

However I am equally tired of hearing how people who commit "non violent crime" should not receive jail time. Bullshit!! If someone steals my identity, they have screwed up my life for the next ten years, or bettor. My credit will be shot. I could be arrested and forced to stand trial for things I did not do. You don't get a refund from your attorney or the court when you are found not guilty. You don't get your job back when you miss a few months in jail trying to make bail for something you did not do. I would rather have the scumbag sucker punch me, and take what little cash I carry on me. A couple of hours of overtime would recover the loss, and my face would heal in a few weeks. Likewise with breaking into my home and stealing a irreplaceable heirloom from my great great grandfather. I'm sorry but people who are too lazy to earn an honest living, and resort to stealing, need to do some hard time. Put their lazy asses in a work farm like the one in the movie "Cool Hand Luke". 12 hour days. 6 days a week. When they get out, an honest job (or two) will seem like a vacation. Quit wasting money incarcerating people convicted of victemless crimes, and free up more space for lazy thieving assholes.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And it's a bout time. I've never thought non-violent crime was worthy of jail time. Which is why I hate Harpers 'tough on crime' stance. He tends to do exactly the wrong thing.

Besides, if he really was tough on crime even for non-violent crimes, then a good portion of his cabinet, the senate, and other politician dillweeds would be sitting in the can right now.

Fixed it for you to reflect non-bias.

Didn't need fixing, I'm not partisan. I made the point of saying Conservative because it's Harper and his Conservative govt that wants to get all tough on crime.

[BeaverFever]

andyt andyt:

You can force somebody into treatment, the question is if it will do any good. Some addictions professionals think it can. Again, if you keep the addict away from drugs long enough and provide support for living a straight life. You may have to repeat for several tries. But as a start, we need to keep jails clean of drugs - very little hope somebody will get clean in jail if drugs are so easy to get.

It may be easier and cheaper to just forget all about treatment and provide hard core addicts with their drugs to keep them from doing crimes to get them. But some habitual criminals do their crimes more for oppositional reasons - those would be the hardest to crack.

When crimes are fuelled by addiction, courts should be able to sentence the offender to rehab. I get that some say rehab isn't successful if the participant isn't willing, but just as the US sentence people to life in prison over petty crimes then why not an open-ended sentence to rehab where you don't come out till you're clean?

[DrCaleb]

rickc rickc:

I do not think that "non violent crime" is the catch prhase we should be throwing around here. How about "vicimless crime" instead? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/1 ... 14884.html
Over half of the prisoners in federal prison are there for drug offenses, up from 16% in 1970. What a wastes of tax dollars incarcerating (basically warehousing ) people who could be working and paying taxes. Their families would not be on public assistance. Some of these drugs like cannabis, we could actually be generating tax dollars on the legal sale of. I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted incarcerating people convicted of "victimless crimes".

However I am equally tired of hearing how people who commit "non violent crime" should not receive jail time. Bullshit!! If someone steals my identity, they have screwed up my life for the next ten years, or bettor. My credit will be shot. I could be arrested and forced to stand trial for things I did not do. You don't get a refund from your attorney or the court when you are found not guilty. You don't get your job back when you miss a few months in jail trying to make bail for something you did not do. I would rather have the scumbag sucker punch me, and take what little cash I carry on me. A couple of hours of overtime would recover the loss, and my face would heal in a few weeks. Likewise with breaking into my home and stealing a irreplaceable heirloom from my great great grandfather. I'm sorry but people who are too lazy to earn an honest living, and resort to stealing, need to do some hard time. Put their lazy asses in a work farm like the one in the movie "Cool Hand Luke". 12 hour days. 6 days a week. When they get out, an honest job (or two) will seem like a vacation. Quit wasting money incarcerating people convicted of victemless crimes, and free up more space for lazy thieving assholes.

That's actually an excellent distinction! I chose 'non violent' as the line to cross, but it didn't take into account the scammers and thieves that are a blight on society.

'Victimless' seems more appropriate. I am a victim if someone steals my money through mail fraud, but I am not a victim if someone gets caught smoking weed.

[andyt]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

andyt andyt:

You can force somebody into treatment, the question is if it will do any good. Some addictions professionals think it can. Again, if you keep the addict away from drugs long enough and provide support for living a straight life. You may have to repeat for several tries. But as a start, we need to keep jails clean of drugs - very little hope somebody will get clean in jail if drugs are so easy to get.

It may be easier and cheaper to just forget all about treatment and provide hard core addicts with their drugs to keep them from doing crimes to get them. But some habitual criminals do their crimes more for oppositional reasons - those would be the hardest to crack.

When crimes are fuelled by addiction, courts should be able to sentence the offender to rehab. I get that some say rehab isn't successful if the participant isn't willing, but just as the US sentence people to life in prison over petty crimes then why not an open-ended sentence to rehab where you don't come out till you're clean?

We already have drug courts in Vancouver. They've shown themselves not to be very effective, mostly I think because they are not stiff enough, are seen as a bit of a joke by the criminals.

getting clean isn't the issue. Only takes a few days until the drugs are out of your system. Wanting to stay clean is the issue, and you can't really test for that. Even somebody that says they want to stay clean, put them back on the street in the same environment where they were using, there's a good chance they will relapse.

What I am suggesting is longer term incarceration that is focused on rehab. Getting counselling for the addiction, getting job and life skill training, and just spending say at least a year working and living without drugs in a locked up facility. And then providing the addict with supports when they get out, so they don't' just go back to the old life that led them to using. That might work for some of them. The ones who cycle thru that system a few times without success might just have to be locked up for long terms to protect society.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

What I am suggesting is longer term incarceration that is focused on rehab. Getting counselling for the addiction, getting job and life skill training, and just spending say at least a year working and living without drugs in a locked up facility. And then providing the addict with supports when they get out, so they don't' just go back to the old life that led them to using. That might work for some of them. The ones who cycle thru that system a few times without success might just have to be locked up for long terms to protect society.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I have in mind, although I don't picture it being a 'cell block' type of environment, more like rehab or hospital kind of environment.

[andyt]

I don't think any prisoner should be in a cell block environment. We don't get people to behave like human beings by treating them like animals. In many cases I'm in favor of longer sentences, but sentences that seek to rehabilitate, not just punish. We should probably take a look at Norway's system, which is much milder than ours, but has a much lower recidivism rate.

Was just reading an interview with a psychologist show sees addiction as not a disease but as a learning problem. Which makes sense, addiction is a kind of operant conditioning, with a very powerful, very immediate reward. He says this this very attractive immediate reward drowns out future rewards of higher value. So addicts need to be taught to say no to the now, ie delay gratification, and reap those future rewards. That takes time.