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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:52 pm
 


FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:
Oh, and I enjoy how Andy does not even try to refute the fact that the Cuban government exercises censorship of the media and communications as well as suppress dissent. Oh, I imagine life in Cuba is nice--just as long as you tow the party line and do not say anything critical of the Castros.



And I like how you just skate over where I address that by pointing out that the US has no problem dealing with China and Russia, among other states that are much more repressive than Cuba. And how if the embargo had been lifted long ago, Cuba would be a democracy by now - the pressure would have just been too great on Castro with all that wealth flooding in. Just political pandering to some idiot voters in Florida who would rather deny their ex-fellow country men the same lifestyle they have just to try to punish Castro. Who obviously isn't feeling the pain.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:05 pm
 


Or Saudi Arabia, now there's a bastion of freedom. The Saudi rulers make Fidel look like he's wearing a hairshirt under those fatigues.

The US buys Saudi oil and lets the Saudis buy US arms with that money. But better yet, the Saudis suppress dissent (aside from the usual way) by buying off the jihadis with that US oil money as long as the jihadis behave themselves and only do jihad on those US infidels. Then there's all those madrasas... Fidel is a teddy bear compared to the Saudi scum.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:43 pm
 


FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:
Well, admittedly the leadership has not passed on from father to bitshit crazy son but give it time and the Castros will join the Kims in the deep end. Though on incongruity I must note is that the cult of personality the Castros enjoy is not based in Cuba but in the United States and Canada among the "progressive" Left.


Tehy're not big Pinochet fans in Chile either.

And get your history right--Pinochet ended democratoic rule, he didn't start it. He overthrew an elected government in a US-backed coup. He tortured and killed thousands. x You're jjust the same as the progressive left--they forgive Catro, you forgivr pnicohet.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:45 pm
 


I dno't forgivr anbyody


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:28 pm
 


Most of Cuba is a shit hole with the infrastructure near total collapse. They maintain the tourist areas in order to generate revenue and have a few places they keep on display for the likes of Sean Penn, Oliver Stone, or Michael Moore to sermonize in front of with their trademark "Comrade Fidel's people's paradise is awesome! It's the US that really sucks!" bullshit routine. All in all, life in Cuba for the normal folks is no better, and most often considerable worse than it is for any others trapped in any of their counterpart right-wing dictatorships.

Speaking of tourists who like "to vacation in other people's misery", this song's made just for you



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:58 pm
 


FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:
fifeboy fifeboy:
Just curious, but what do you base this on?

I admit that was an exaggeration, but Fidel Castro is very popular with generally left-leaning Hollywood celebrities who like to pay him personal visits. Part of my assertion is also a reaction to a fawning Op-Ed Sasha Trudeau wrote in the Toronto Star (big surprise) back in 2006. I do not have a link off-hand, but I recall him calling Fidel "a keen scientific mind" among other words of praise.

Oh, and I enjoy how Andy does not even try to refute the fact that the Cuban government exercises censorship of the media and communications as well as suppress dissent. Oh, I imagine life in Cuba is nice--just as long as you tow the party line and do not say anything critical of the Castros.

EDIT: I found a post on a blog with a copy/paste of said Op-Ed.

Well, suppose yer rite! I'm sure your average Cuban would rather live on one of those bastions at freedom like Haiti or Jamaica . Don't believe everything Ronnie Raygun told you .


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:27 pm
 


xerxes xerxes:
It's already far saner than the Kims of DPRK.

Yes indeed. Cuba has it's problem to be sure, but compared to the DPRK it is a much better place to live as twisted as that sounds.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:31 pm
 


:|


Last edited by Public_Domain on Sun Feb 23, 2025 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:05 pm
 


You're just a left-wing prog forgiving Castro. Or so says Zipper.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:34 am
 


andyt andyt:
You're just a left-wing prog forgiving Castro. Or so says Zipper.


Actually, I'm a left-wing prog, and more partial to Castro than Pinochet. But I recognize that my view is slanted by my own politics. I doubt Castro's prisons are any nicer than Pinochet's were. And the results of my speaking freely would be pretty much the same under either regime.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:46 am
 


We haven't heard about he disappearances in Cuba the way we did in Chile. Or the torture.

Castro was a dictator replacing a dictator. Pinochet was a dictator replacing a democratically elected leader.

Castro took people living way below the level of Chile and gave them some decent fundamentals. BUt now he's inhibiting economic growth in Cuba. Lift the embargo, let Americans go to Cuba, and in no time Castro, either one, would be gone.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:06 am
 


Sounds like Castro isn't any better than Batista (the previous AND US supported dictator) was. 8O

Hardly surprising, I doubt too many dictators actually take power by force and then continue to live as they did when they were peons.

I get that it's complete hypocrisy on Castro's part, but the whole US line of 'that dictatorial bastard in Cuba' is hypocritical too. They are only unhappy because Castro evicted them and invited in the USSR.

Had he stayed in the US sphere, they would have supported Castro just as much as they did all the other dictators they have supported around the world in the past 60 or 70 years.

It's the 90210/Melrose Place of Latin America if you ask me.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:24 pm
 


This is an interesting discussion for me, since it ties into a pet theory of mine.

Take a look at what Julius Nyerere implemented in Tanzania and what was implemented Somalia during their socialist and Communist rule. Economically, both countries were disasters, as the government proved completely incapable of fostering solid economic development. However, what they did manage to do was improve things like education and health by providing these services to the population at large. Similar points have been raised about Cuba's own healthcare system and its trained physicians, and I recall similar things happening in the Soviet Union from my high school studies.

Now, on the other hand we have right-wing dictators like Pinochet in Chile, under whom the economy might have looked good...but I can't help but wonder exactly how much of that wealth actually trickled down to your average Jose in the streets. It reminds me of Victorian Europe, when Charles Dickens was writing stories like "Great Expectations" and "David Copperfield", and Victor Hugo was writing "Les Miserables" decrying the way so many people struggled to get by in ostensibly wealthy countries...and in reaction to which Marx and Engels created the Marxism that was to create so much misery and horror in the next century.

To me, this suggests that the private sector is, rather obviously, very effective at creating wealth and technological progress. However, the catch is that wealth doesn't always trickle down and can easily become concentrated, even as some private businesspeople try to game the system to keep out competitors and maximize their profits in unethical ways.

On the other hand, governments are very effective at providing social services such as health care and education to mitigate the effects of things like unemployment and unplanned life events (e.g., accidents, sudden illnesses, or anything else that negatively impacts someone's life) and enable people to still participate in the larger society. What governments are no good at, on the other hand, is creating wealth and directing the economy as a whole, which is why Eastern Europeans were stuck with second-rate garbage like the Trabant and the Lada, and why North Korean science is something Wile E. Coyote would laugh at.

Hard socialist and Communist countries, like Tanzania, Somalia and Cuba, show how miserable things can be when the government tries to forcibly collectivize everything, while hard individualism in societies like Victorian Britain show that, despite however wealthy the country is, that wealth and the social order that it depends on can be undermined if too many people struggle just to make ends meet and have a hard time participating in the larger economy.

As I've said elsewhere, including on this forum, that balance between individual initiative and collective action, and between governments and markets, has been one of the keys to our success in Canada. Ideally, governments and private sectors can play off each other's strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses. That's why I've always hated the polarization that's so present in politics these days-as if anyone who supports some sort of tax increase or new government program is a closet Communist, while anyone who wants to cut spending or defends the private sector secretly wants to slash and burn every kind of government activity to the bone...when, as is so often the case in Canada, the truth is much closer to the middle.


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