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Posts: 10503
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:55 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson: llama66 llama66: it comes down to his defence, and whether he can create a reasonable doubt. "Reasonable doubt" is going to center on what threat the suspect posed to the cop. And at the moment of the gunfire there was exactly NO threat to the cop or to anyone else. Once again, I hold this shoot to the same standard that this very cop would hold to a Canadian citizen who would shoot someone in the same circumstance. Seriously, if that was a security guard instead of a cop we wouldn't be having any debate at all over this. We'd look at the video and see an unjustified shoot and we'd want the shooter prosecuted. Period. Cops shouldn't get a pass on murdering people just because they have a shiny badge on their chest. In this case it's really heartening to see that Toronto isn't going to let this slide. Fair enough, but we also allow for everyone to defend themselves. We should convict someone based on grainy CCTV footage. I seriously want to hear what this guy has to say for himself.
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shockedcanadian
CKA Elite
Posts: 3164
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:06 pm
[/quote]
Fair enough, but we also allow for everyone to defend themselves. We should convict someone based on grainy CCTV footage. I seriously want to hear what this guy has to say for himself.[/quote]
Absolutely, he is innocent until proven guilty, noone is more committed to the Rule of Law then me, I just know that as a nation Canada lacks many other countries in this belief and representation of this.
I will be following this court case closely.
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:35 pm
For those who haven't seen the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG6OTyjzAggI wont embed it because it's simply too sad to watch. What blows my mind is that, after the first 3 rounds, the cop had a stoppage (those with keen ears will agree), he clears it, then puts 6 more rounds into the kid after he is already disabled. The body is subsequently tased.
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Posts: 4914
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:02 pm
Well the warrant was issued for his arrest and I would think the SIU would have spoken with the crown, usually these investigative units tend to be light in their recommendations if, judging from some past cases (granted not as serious as this) is any indication. I think from my armchair QB position that second degree murder charge is warranted and quite appropriate.
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Posts: 10503
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:41 pm
The issue that will be tough to prove is intent. For murder 2 to stick intent needs to be proven past a shadow of a doubt. Not knowing this guys defence I have no idea what is going to come out at court.
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Lemmy
CKA Uber
Posts: 12349
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:43 pm
Clearly his defense will be "legal duty".
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Posts: 2372
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:55 pm
Right or wrong the criminal conviction rate of cops so far when criminal charges were recommended by the SIU are something like 0 out of 6. Lets see what comes of this one. My money is on a non jury trial option assuming it even makes it past preliminary hearing. Reason being people who know everything based on one video like the poster above me.
Regardless of if he was right or wrong, to say a couple minute video can tell a whole story it just ignorant in any case.
EDIT: When I wrote this there was a different post above mine. Not sure where it went.
Last edited by Benn on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Posts: 33691
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:19 pm
Lemmy Lemmy: Clearly his defense will be "legal duty". All they need is to show the streetcar was still working, or the words 'suicide belt', and all bets are off. This will be another clusterfuck. Funny though, the CBC still shows the 'thuggy' picture of Forcillo, you think by now they could have found his official service photo ?
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Xort
Forum Super Elite
Posts: 2366
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:48 pm
Benn Benn: Regardless of if he was right or wrong, to say a couple minute video can tell a whole story it just ignorant in any case. What whole story could possibly justify the follow up 6 shots? Please give me a version where that is justified.
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:07 am
Xort Xort: Benn Benn: Regardless of if he was right or wrong, to say a couple minute video can tell a whole story it just ignorant in any case. What whole story could possibly justify the follow up 6 shots? Please give me a version where that is justified. Maybe you should wait for the trial? That's when ACTUAL evidence outside of iPhone video will be presented. Rushing to judge with snippets of evidence and then lynching by media is a good reason we have a legal system not run by the Toronto Star and CBC. I'm as interested as anybody in seeing the evidence. As in at court and not from twitter.
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OnTheIce 
CKA Uber
Posts: 10666
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:34 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock: Xort Xort: Benn Benn: Regardless of if he was right or wrong, to say a couple minute video can tell a whole story it just ignorant in any case. What whole story could possibly justify the follow up 6 shots? Please give me a version where that is justified. Maybe you should wait for the trial? That's when ACTUAL evidence outside of iPhone video will be presented. Rushing to judge with snippets of evidence and then lynching by media is a good reason we have a legal system not run by the Toronto Star and CBC. I'm as interested as anybody in seeing the evidence. As in at court and not from twitter. ![Drink up [B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif) Everyone, police or civilian, should be treated this way.
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shockedcanadian
CKA Elite
Posts: 3164
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:37 am
[/quote] ![Drink up [B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif) Everyone, police or civilian, should be treated this way.[/quote] Let me tell you, that this is not the case. The undercover security apparatus from the police to CSIS, accuse, try and convict many citizens and give them a life sentence, and they hear nary a peep from their accusers...
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Posts: 5233
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:42 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock: Xort Xort: Benn Benn: Regardless of if he was right or wrong, to say a couple minute video can tell a whole story it just ignorant in any case. What whole story could possibly justify the follow up 6 shots? Please give me a version where that is justified. Maybe you should wait for the trial? That's when ACTUAL evidence outside of iPhone video will be presented. Rushing to judge with snippets of evidence and then lynching by media is a good reason we have a legal system not run by the Toronto Star and CBC. I'm as interested as anybody in seeing the evidence. As in at court and not from twitter. You're absolutely right of course, but even if we don't judge the officer before the trial, there will be speculation about what exactly happened. And, of course, the main thing most of us wonder about it "why did he start shooting when no one else did?" and "what was the reason for the last 6 shots and the taser?". I'm willing to wait for a trial for the facts to come out, but in the meantime i really do get stuck on those two questions. Especially the last 6 shots. i just can't imagine a scenario where that's justified.
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Posts: 65472
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:56 am
llama66 llama66: Fair enough, but we also allow for everyone to defend themselves. No, you don't and that's my measure of what was wrong with this shooting. #1. Had an average Canadian citizen conducted that shooting they'd be in jail. Period. For using a gun. For having a gun. For defending themselves instead of retreating from the situation and calling the police. In any case, you most certainly do NOT allow for everyone to defend themselves. #2. Had that been an average Canadian in the exact same situation as the cop you'd be asking why he didn't just move back and leave the guy with the knife alone since he was not an immediate threat? Likewise, that's my problem with the cop and it would appear that the people who reviewed the shoot agree with this. #3. Since when does 'everyone' in Canada have a right to carry a Taser and a Glock to defend themselves? Again making the point that you do not allow 'everyone' to defend themselves, just special people who are more equal than others. 
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Posts: 65472
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:57 am
Unsound Unsound: I'm willing to wait for a trial for the facts to come out, but in the meantime i really do get stuck on those two questions. Especially the last 6 shots. i just can't imagine a scenario where that's justified. 'Zactly.
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