[OnTheIce]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Got some proof for that?

I had a case many years back where I had to get plastic surgery to remove an embedded piece of metal from my hand.

The hospital wait was around 3 months. Instead, I went to a private surgeon and it was done the next week, thus allowing someone else to take up my spot in the hospital queue and perhaps move up a day, week or more depending on the doctor's schedule and the hospital.

[BeaverFever]

2 problems with that though:

1) Health care is one of those services that most Canadians feel should not depend on wealth. The same way that Americans would not approve of letting wealthy people pay to get preferential privlages when voting or from the Fire Department.

2) Too many helath care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

[andyt]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2 problems with that though:



2) Too many helath care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

Actually what OTI is describing, a totally private practice, health care providers aren't jumping over because there's not enough money in it to compete with the govt plan. What they want is to feed at the govt trough and be able to charge more as well. That should never be allowed. There's nothing preventing a doctor providing the same services covered by medicare, as long as s/he doesn't also have a medicare billing number. AFAIK anyway.

That's what OTI should invest in, a totally private clinic.

[BartSimpson]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2 problems with that though:

1) Health care is one of those services that most Canadians feel should not depend on wealth. The same way that Americans would not approve of letting wealthy people pay to get preferential privlages when voting or from the Fire Department.

Wrong analogy. Much of the rural USA receives fire protection from community or private fire companies that serve only their subscribers. And now many urban municipal fire departments will bill non-residents for services rendered at crash sites and for rescues due to other injuries or ailments.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) Too many health care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

Freedom is a scary thing to you, isn't it?

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) Too many health care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

Freedom is a scary thing to you, isn't it?

It goes against your argument that allowing docs to bill both the govt and privately won't reduce the number of docs available for govt care. There's a world wide shortage of healthcare workers, if they move to the private side they take away from the public.

But, they are free to only accept private payers in Canada. Just not then also take patients under the govt scheme. And they ain't doing that in any large numbers.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2 problems with that though:

1) Health care is one of those services that most Canadians feel should not depend on wealth. The same way that Americans would not approve of letting wealthy people pay to get preferential privlages when voting or from the Fire Department.

2) Too many helath care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

One problem though - this story is about who owns the hospital, not who pays for the services.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

As long as the hospital follows the government fee schedule and doesn't allow extra billing, it's no big deal IMHO.

What would fall into your definition of extra billing? Charging more for the same service and billing the customer the difference or offering extra services not covered by our health insurance?

Yes.

Although it could also include charging 'membership fees' to allow queue jumping or any other sort of way to earn more income than a physician doing the same procedure(s) in a public facility.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

It goes against your argument that allowing docs to bill both the govt and privately won't reduce the number of docs available for govt care. There's a world wide shortage of healthcare workers, if they move to the private side they take away from the public.

Canada's public health care can only survive if doctors are forced to work for it?

Again, what's so bad about freedom that you oppose it? Shouldn't doctors be free to work where they want to and shouldn't patients be free to choose a private hospital over a public hospital if they want?

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2 problems with that though:

1) Health care is one of those services that most Canadians feel should not depend on wealth. The same way that Americans would not approve of letting wealthy people pay to get preferential privlages when voting or from the Fire Department.

2) Too many helath care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

What they feel and what's reality are different stories. Wealthy people do get better access to care already so let's stop kidding ourselves.

Health care providers will only jump to the private sector if there's demand. Pricesely why there are only a few private plasic surgeons in Toronto and many more in the public sector.

A great example of private care already in existence would be Medcan in Toronto:
http://www.medcan.com/

bootlegga bootlegga:

Yes.

Although it could also include charging 'membership fees' to allow queue jumping or any other sort of way to earn more income than a physician doing the same procedure(s) in a public facility.

It already happens today in public hospitals.

A prime example would be the hospital charging for semi-private or private rooms. The general public gets put in a room with a dozen people while those with private insurance get semi-private rooms or private. I opted to pay out of pocket to allow my wife and son to have a private room when he was born as my insurance only covered semi-private.

[Regina]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) Too many helath care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

Bingo. They'll use the public health system to build their practice and reputation. Once they have that, they will start spending more time on the private and less for public. It's human nature.....why do more for less. Can't have your feet on both sides of the fence when it comes to this.

[OnTheIce]

Regina Regina:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) Too many helath care providers could jump over to a more lucrative private sector, leaving the public sector in the lurch.

Bingo. They'll use the public health system to build their practice and reputation. Once they have that, they will start spending more time on the private and less for public. It's human nature.....why do more for less. Can't have your feet on both sides of the fence when it comes to this.

If that was truly the case, why isn't it happening more?

Why isn't their a flood of private surgeons or private medical clinics opening up?

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Yes.

Although it could also include charging 'membership fees' to allow queue jumping or any other sort of way to earn more income than a physician doing the same procedure(s) in a public facility.

It already happens today in public hospitals.

A prime example would be the hospital charging for semi-private or private rooms. The general public gets put in a room with a dozen people while those with private insurance get semi-private rooms or private. I opted to pay out of pocket to allow my wife and son to have a private room when he was born as my insurance only covered semi-private.

The doctor doesn't charge that - the health authority charges you for that privilege. It is also optional, it is not mandatory. You can opt for a public room (4 beds here in Edmonton hospitals) if you don't want to pay $30/day for it.

What hospitals here don't do is they don't charge extra for medical care, which is what extra billing is.

Extra billing, IMHO, is a doctor charging the provincial health organization $50,000 for heart surgery and then charging the patient and extra $50,000 as well. When that happens, it will be the death knell of the public system here in Canada.

FYI, be thankful you had your son in Canada - if you lived in the US, you could have been presented with a bill for as much as $30,000 after they were discharged, even if you have benefits through work. My SIL paid almost $20,000 in 2001 when she had her son - despite having coverage from private insurance through her employer.

That's a prime example of private health care in action.

[BartSimpson]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

If that was truly the case, why isn't it happening more?

Why isn't their a flood of private surgeons or private medical clinics opening up?

Because it's easier to just move to the USA and do what you want in a medical profession.

Canada produces some excellent doctors and we deeply appreciate them.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Because it's easier to just move to the USA and do what you want in a medical profession.

Canada produces some excellent doctors and we deeply appreciate them.

In the past year at the hospital I work at, we've seen a bevy of physicians come north from the US, so we'll call it even. Same goes for other facilities around town - docs are almost flooding back here from south of the border.

From the doctors I've talked to, they mostly go to the US to earn cash, but come back here for the quality of life.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Because it's easier to just move to the USA and do what you want in a medical profession.

Canada produces some excellent doctors and we deeply appreciate them.

In the past year at the hospital I work at, we've seen a bevy of physicians come north from the US, so we'll call it even. Same goes for other facilities around town - docs are almost flooding back here from south of the border.

From the doctors I've talked to, they mostly go to the US to earn cash, but come back here for the quality of life.

Actually some are moving here for the money. Some specialties pay more here than there, but also, American docs spend so much time filling out paperwork for the various insurance companies they have less time to see patients = less earnings.