[Mustang1]

Alexandre Alexandre:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Oh...so, when Scott is murdered by a trumped up charge by a questionable jury, its rationalized away due to the inevitable moral quandaries in conflicts? Brilliant. You just kicked your own silly quote mining of Wolfe to the curb.

Wolfe committed no war crimes and he was NO mass murderer - quit pushing this bushleague ahistorical mush as no reputable historian would ever suggest such nonsense. He beat your ancestors and then, New France ceased to exist. Get over it.

Again, the murder of scott was not right, but the métis cause and their fight still was. And you cant compare the murder of one guy to the plunder of an whole society.

Wolfe was not as worst as amherst. But he ordered the bombing of civilians in quebec and agreed with a policy of deliberate starvation of our population. It sound like war crime to me.

And why you think i didnt "got over it" ? We're simply talking about history here, i dont hold any desire of vengeance for things that happened 250 years ago. Just relax.

Riel was a hypocrite, a murderer and a self-serving whackjob. That's his legacy and you've offered nothing of substance to alter that fact.

Wolfe isn't guilty of "war crimes". Again, all you've done is pass off your personal opinions as fact. That's not history. His actions - especially the siege of Quebec - were well within the accepted norms of his milieu. Perhaps you should do some more reading of decent history BEFORE posting.

[Mustang1]

Alexandre Alexandre:

Actually i've read many books and articles about it thank you. And wolfe siege of quebec caused enormous disaster on its population, including the bombings of civilians and starvation. Thats historically documented. And i wonder why you think the the murder of one combattant is worse than that.

And even tough you hate Riel, the métis were right to fight for their cause. Riel was crazy but still led them. So there is a lot of good about Riel.

And frankly, i really dont know why its impossible to have a discussion about these subjects with you guys without all this hostility.

You've read "many books and articles" about the subject? Bull. If you did, you wouldn't be committing the historical sin of projecting contemporary views onto past events. Sorry, no reputable historical work has referred to Wolfe's actions as "war crimes".

I don't hate Riel - all i've done here is characterize him with objective evidence. Nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps instead of calling us "hostile" you could try and not conjure up motives or ascribe "likes or dislikes" for anyone's assessment.

[Mustang1]

Alexandre Alexandre:

And who are you exactly to tell me who know history and who doesnt ?

I just did - you inject conjecture instead of fact, you offer opinion as an argument, you refuse to name what scholarly historian labels Wolfe's actions as "war crimes" (you provide where Fregault or Stacey or Morton or Chartrand specifically calls Wolfe's actions 'war crimes')and you view the past through a contemporary lens - the cardinal error of armchair historians.

So far, you haven't demonstrated you know jack about history.

[kenmore]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Saying you are 'different' and therefore justifying a very real distaste for Canada that many separatists have is just another cop out.

Why can everybody else get over ancient battles but the Quebecois? Really, its no wonder that many Canadians outside of Quebec grow increasingly tired of this never changing, victim's grudge Quebecois society breeds and cultivates.

Wow there.. lets not confuse Québecois(e) with separatists who jump on the historical band wagon to justify their cause. Truth is that the average Québecer has moved on and want as Bouchard says, education and employment opportunities.

[2Cdo]

Alexandre Alexandre:

I'm not a professional historian and im sure most peoples here are not. We are all amateur in that sphere and i dont think you're better than me.

And you'd be wrong, just like every other bit of revisionist junk you've posted here.

[kenmore]

History is as they say like beauty, its in the eye of the beholder. Some based on fact, alot based on fiction. Why are we so bent on chewing the same old fat? If we are to move forward as a country, why not spend our energies on what binds us rather than divides us? And lets stop the personal attacks when ones opinion differs from ours.

[2Cdo]

Alexandre Alexandre:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Alexandre Alexandre:

I'm not a professional historian and im sure most peoples here are not. We are all amateur in that sphere and i dont think you're better than me.

And you'd be wrong, just like every other bit of revisionist junk you've posted here.

And what "revisionism" i posted ?

What is the real truth for you? Riel and his metis being horrible traitorous barbarians while wolfe and amherst were great humanitarians ?

That's what all the "real" professional historians say about Riel. Wolfe and Amherst, while not viewed as humanitarians, are not viewed as war criminals either.

You're view is wrong. End of story.

[Arctic_Menace]

Alex, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume the historians you are referring to are Quebecois/French?

[2Cdo]

Alexandre Alexandre:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

That's what all the "real" professional historians say about Riel. Wolfe and Amherst, while not viewed as humanitarians, are not viewed as war criminals either.

You're view is wrong. End of story.

And which historian say that Riel and the métis were a bunch of traitorous barbarians ?

And if you dont know that most Historians regard Amherst as a war criminal, you dont know anything about history.

Thats real end of the story.

You're completely without a clue. The quality of history education in Quebec is reflected in your absolute lack of knowledge of Canadian history.

[2Cdo]

Alexandre Alexandre:

When what proof do you have to make such affirmations?

The only thing you guys can do is to say that im wrong and believe propaganda without any single fact.

weak.

From what ive seen so far, i would say that quality of historical education in Quebec is far superior. Based on what you wrote, it seems the history learned in english canada got a very pro-british view point.

You demand proof yet offer none of your own, other than your opinions.

As far as claiming our histroy being pro-British, what does Quebec history offer other than French/Quebec good and British are evil?

[Mustang1]

Alexandre Alexandre:

You havent demonstrated either. The only thing you did was to call Louis Riel names and the only thing you remember about his legacy is the assasination of Thoamas Scott.

Then prove me wrong. Prove that he wasn't a murderer, traitor, mentally unstable, or a hypocrite. Again...all i'm seeing is amateurish nonsense.

$1:

And as for being an "armchair historian", i agree. I'm not a professional historian and im sure most peoples here are not. We are all amateur in that sphere and i dont think you're better than me.

So, nothing on all those historians naming Wolfe as a "war criminal" or guilty of "war crimes"? Didn't think so. You just got called out. Instead of calling others hostile, why not fess up to your errors?

[Mustang1]

Alexandre Alexandre:

From what ive seen so far, i would say that quality of historical education in Quebec is far superior. Based on what you wrote, it seems the history learned in english canada got a very pro-british view point.

If you're any indication, the quality of Quebec history education is deplorable. But hey, prove me wrong - let's see your history at work and provide the scholarly work that specifically labels Wolfe's actions as "war crimes".

[Mustang1]

Alexandre Alexandre:

And which historian say that Riel and the métis were a bunch of traitorous barbarians ?

"Riel was the man who, after a Kanagroo court trial, ordered the murder of a loud-mouthed Ontario Orangemen and, to boot, was a crazed religious fanatic that led two armed rebellions" - Jack Granatstein. Heard of him?

End of story

[Lemmy]

Alexandre Alexandre:

Actually i've read many books and articles about it thank you.

Otto: "Apes don't read philosophy."
Wanda: "Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it."

[fifeboy]

Most of the Metis I know (and I know a lot of Metis) consider Riel to be a very sad case. A crazy guy with an impossible idea. They consider this guy:
to have been a hero and one kick-ass MOFO.